Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:08 am

Dunmunro wrote: "Any observer with at least one good eye could determine when Bismarck opened fire"
Hi Duncan,
no, the demonstration is that several German observers said Hood fired at Bismarck.... :shock:

You cannot rely on British witnesses for Bismarck open fire time but ONLY on the German primary sources (PG KTB with Jasper and Schmalenbach reports). In addition almost all witnesses (both sides) established Hood exploded at 6:00 and this is totally incompatible with BS open fire at 5:53.


you wrote: "The Baron's account was written decades after the fact"
and it is BY FAR the best account of the DS battle available in a published book (under several aspects, albeit "diplomatically": distance of the heavy cruisers, timings, maps, PoW maneuver, etc.) for sure much better than Kennedy, who accepted blindly Tovey "official version".....



In any case, we are still waiting for your battlemap + explanation of Bismarck firing (salvo plot and RoF), based on the absurd open fire time at 5:53 and Hood explosion at 5:56 :shock: ....while Antonio has reconstructed the battle (+ Bismarck and PG firing) matching not only PG KTB/GARs and PoW GAR/maps but mostly the PG film and photos (that cannot be contradicted by any British report/witness).
Good Luck for your work.


Bye, Alberto
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by pgollin » Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:33 pm

.

The Baron's account is both self-serving and glosses over a lot of stuff not in-line with the Bismarck's honour (e.g. the panic amongst the sailors undergoing the final bombardment). It is NOT reliable.

.

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:37 pm

...not perfect possibly,... But much better than Kennedy's '"fairy tale". :wink:

Alberto
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Herr Nilsson » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:22 am

Neuer Gegner an Backbord in Sicht! 4.54 Uhr: Feuererlaubnis, 4.55 Uhr: Schwere Artillerie klar! Gleichzeitig mit Feuerbeginn von "Hood" erste Salve "Bismarck". 4.57: unsere erste Salve. 4.58 Uhr: erster Treffer auf "Hood". 5.02 Uhr: "Hood explodiert und sinkt. 5.09 Uhr: Feuer einstellen!

New opponent sighted on port! 0454: Permission to fire. 0455: Heavy artillery ready and clear! Simultaneous commencement of fire by "Hood" and first salvo from "Bismarck". 0457: our first salvo. 0458: first hit on "Hood". 0502: "Hood" explodes and sinks. 0509: Cease fire!
Schmitz-Westerholt (Prinz Eugen), September 1941
0553 (B). Heavy gun flashes bearing 185°. Half a minute later Bismarck opened fire to port.
0556½ (B). Prinz Eugen opened fire to port.
0559 (B). Hood blew up.
Ellis (Suffolk), June 1941

Isn't it remarkable?
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:49 am

Hi Marc,
sure, remarkable and very contradictory too (even excluding time shifts).

Did PG delay open fire by 2 minutes or 3 and half vs Hood ? "Simultaneous" open fire of BS vs Hood or 30 seconds after ? Did Hood explode after 6 or 7 minutes after her own open fire ? :think:

I still prefer to stick to Brinkmann, Jasper and Schmalenbach timings and Gunnery Reports that allow to build a complete and consistent salvo chart for PG during the whole battle.
BTW, if PG opens fire at 0457, then she cannot hit with the gabellgruppe (as per Jasper report) at 0458 after having fired 2 vollsalve in any way (due to flight and observation times, 2 minutes or 2 and half are the minimum delay) therefore this account is in any case quite imprecise......


Bye, Alberto
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by dunmunro » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:34 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:49 am
Hi Marc,
sure, remarkable and very contradictory too (even excluding time shifts).

Did PG delay open fire by 2 minutes or 3 and half vs Hood ? "Simultaneous" open fire of BS vs Hood or 30 seconds after ? Did Hood explode after 6 or 7 minutes after her own open fire ? :think:

I still prefer to stick to Brinkmann, Jasper and Schmalenbach timings and Gunnery Reports that allow to build a complete and consistent salvo chart for PG during the whole battle.
BTW, if PG opens fire at 0457, then she cannot hit with the gabellgruppe (as per Jasper report) at 0458 after having fired 2 vollsalve in any way (due to flight and observation times, 2 minutes or 2 and half are the minimum delay) therefore this account is in any case quite imprecise......


Bye, Alberto
To build a timeline, the usual process is to examine the all evidence and then build a timeline that best fits the evidence. Instead, A&A have built a timeline based upon a very exclusive process and then reject all evidence to the contrary.

We have a preponderance of evidence that clearly states that all 3 battleships opened fire within ~30 seconds of one another. Any timeline that doesn't use this as a starting point is most probably wrong.

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:45 pm

Dunmunro wrote: "Any timeline that doesn't use this as a starting point is most probably wrong."
...but any starting point that does not allow to build a COMPLETE salvo chart (using official gunnery data) is just a waste of time.....


Bye, Alberto
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by dunmunro » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:34 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:45 pm
Dunmunro wrote: "Any timeline that doesn't use this as a starting point is most probably wrong."
...but any starting point that does not allow to build a COMPLETE salvo chart (using official gunnery data) is just a waste of time.....


Bye, Alberto
We do not have sufficient data to build up a complete salvo chart, except for PoW's first 18 salvos. We have no NO DATA from the KM side even remotely comparable to the comprehensive PoW GAR. The data available from PE is disgraceful in it's scarcity. You and A are trying to build a gunnery mountain from almost no data, and then use that artificial mountain of ether to then reject what is probably the most reliable data available, IE the open fire times of the 3 battleships involved.

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:37 am

Hello everybody,

....but we were successful in building an approximate salvo chart that perfectly matches the battle milestones AND the very good Gunnery Report from Jasper for PG (not precise as McMullen's plot, but enough to give precious info and full synchronization with Hood first hit, switch fire, Hood explosion, PoW avoiding wreck, PoW turn away, PG turn away, etc.).

Starting from a vague "starting point" for BS open fire ("simultaneous") just because a painter contradicts the PG Commanding Officer and both her Gunnery Officers is insane, as it is insane to base German open and cease fire time on British remote observations instead of German official KTB/documents/messages AND photos (e.g. NH69722).

Anyway, as we have discussed already, until Mr.Dunmunro will be unable to present an alternative (albeit approximate) COMPLETE salvo sequence for botrh BS and PG, our timeline has to be accepted as the most reliable one. Sorry for that. :stop:


Bye, Alberto
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by dunmunro » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:26 am

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:37 am
Hello everybody,

....but we were successful in building an approximate salvo chart that perfectly matches the battle milestones AND the very good Gunnery Report from Jasper for PG (not precise as McMullen's plot, but enough to give precious info and full synchronization with Hood first hit, switch fire, Hood explosion, PoW avoiding wreck, PoW turn away, PG turn away, etc.).

Starting from a vague "starting point" for BS open fire ("simultaneous") just because a painter contradicts the PG Commanding Officer and both her Gunnery Officers is insane, as it is insane to base German open and cease fire time on British remote observations instead of German official KTB/documents/messages AND photos (e.g. NH69722).

Anyway, as we have discussed already, until Mr.Dunmunro will be unable to present an alternative (albeit approximate) COMPLETE salvo sequence for botrh BS and PG, our timeline has to be accepted as the most reliable one. Sorry for that. :stop:

Lutjens to Group West:
"0552/ 24 Am engaging two heavy units."
All 3 surviving RN ships independently reported that all 3 battleships opened fire within 30 seconds.
PE War Diary [official KTB document], page 35:
Bismarck, since Fleet had exchanged numbers [order of position] to gain a clear field of fire
At the initial sighting, they seemed to be heavy cruisers, and it appeared daring for the
English to go after our formation with these units. The enemy opened fire even while closing in
Bismarck was the first to answer [their] fire and shortly thereafter Prinz Eugen, and the battle
developed as described above.
Bismarck fired before PE and approximately at the same time as Hood.

The fact that you built such a detailed timeline using incorrect information is troubling rather than commendable.

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:46 am

Lutjens to Berlin message: "Hood sunk at 6:00 after 5 minuets battle"

Photo NH69722 shows first salvos of BS and PG as almost simultaneous ones, as logical as the open fire permission was given by Lutjens to both ships....

Brinkmann (PG C.O.), Jasper (PG 1st G.O.) and Schamlenbach (PG 2nd G.O.) (see below) confirm this, as wella s the detailed account of the Baron (Bismarck 3rd G.O.).... (how many times we have discussed already ?)



The fact that Mr. Dunmunro is unable to produce ANY timeline/salvo sequence at all based on his speculation, demonstrates that we are right and he is wrong, and continuously re-opening this point is just proving how stubborn he is. :stubborn:


Bye, Alberto
Attachments
PG_KTB_Schmalenbach_openfire.jpg
PG_KTB_Schmalenbach_openfire.jpg (19.4 KiB) Viewed 507 times
PG_KTB_Jasper_openfire.jpg
PG_KTB_Jasper_openfire.jpg (16.88 KiB) Viewed 507 times
PG_KTB_Brinkmann_open_fire.jpg
PG_KTB_Brinkmann_open_fire.jpg (74.11 KiB) Viewed 507 times
PG_KTB_Schmalenbach_openfire.jpg
PG_KTB_Schmalenbach_openfire.jpg (19.4 KiB) Viewed 508 times
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by dunmunro » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:43 am

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:46 am
Lutjens to Berlin message: "Hood sunk at 6:00 after 5 minuets battle"

Photo NH69722 shows first salvos of BS and PG as almost simultaneous ones, as logical as the open fire permission was given by Lutjens to both ships....

Brinkmann (PG C.O.), Jasper (PG 1st G.O.) and Schamlenbach (PG 2nd G.O.) (see below) confirm this, as wella s the detailed account of the Baron (Bismarck 3rd G.O.).... (how many times we have discussed already ?)



The fact that Mr. Dunmunro is unable to produce ANY timeline/salvo sequence at all based on his speculation, demonstrates that we are right and he is wrong, and continuously re-opening this point is just proving how stubborn he is. :stubborn:


Bye, Alberto
Only Schmalenbach implies that Bismarck opened fire after a delay. Brinkman states that Bismarck fired first and implies no delay while Jasper is silent on the issue. The war diary entry on page 20 is ambiguous since it can be taken that PE fired first but we know that is not correct, as per page 35, and so it doesn't actually state when Bismarck opened fire, only that she did fire at 0555.

The fact that PE delayed opening fire is not disputed and that seems supported by the eye witness data from both sides, and the PE war diary.

You accuse Kennedy of writing fiction and then you and A build a fictional timeline and salvo chart, but this is typical. I can't build a KM salvo chart because the data is inadequate to do so, beyond the fact that Bismarck opened fire at ~0553 and ceased fire at ~0609.

P42 of the PE War Diary states:
The ordnance and technical report and firing list will be attached separately.
and it's a pity these reports haven't been found

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:02 am

Hello everybody,

Dunmunro wrote: " Brinkman states that Bismarck fired first and implies no delay"
NO ! and I'm shouting because we have discussed for YEARS now the same imaginary things. Is Mr.Dunmunro playing a game or really unable to read his own language ?
PG_KTB_Brinkmann_open_fire.jpg
PG_KTB_Brinkmann_open_fire.jpg (74.11 KiB) Viewed 497 times
Brinkmann says British open fire at 5:53 and BS and PG replied at 5:55, perfectly in line with Schmalenbach and the BAron, while Jasper confirms the timing. Full Stop ! It should not be so difficult to understand.... :kaput:


It's a pity this guy cannot produce ANY alternative to Antonio's timeline and to the proposed salvo sequence, but still insists ..... :negative:


Bye, Alberto
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by dunmunro » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:45 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:02 am
Hello everybody,

Dunmunro wrote: " Brinkman states that Bismarck fired first and implies no delay"
NO ! and I'm shouting because we have discussed for YEARS now the same imaginary things. Is Mr.Dunmunro playing a game or really unable to read his own language ?

PG_KTB_Brinkmann_open_fire.jpg

Brinkmann says British open fire at 5:53 and BS and PG replied at 5:55, perfectly in line with Schmalenbach and the BAron, while Jasper confirms the timing. Full Stop ! It should not be so difficult to understand.... :kaput:


It's a pity this guy cannot produce ANY alternative to Antonio's timeline and to the proposed salvo sequence, but still insists ..... :negative:


Bye, Alberto
Brinkmann clearly wrote the entry on page 35:
Bismarck, since Fleet had exchanged numbers [order of position] to gain a clear field of fire
At the initial sighting, they seemed to be heavy cruisers, and it appeared daring for the
English to go after our formation with these units. The enemy opened fire even while closing in
Bismarck was the first to answer [their] fire and shortly thereafter Prinz Eugen, and the battle
developed as described above...I now learned by semaphore from the commander of Bismarck...
(page 36)
...I was ordered to drop back on starboard...
So that is very clearly established.

It's time for you to admit that the overwhelming preponderance of evidence points to Bismarck, Hood and PoW opening fire within 30 seconds of each other, with PE delaying for ~2 minutes.

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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:56 pm

Hello everybody,

it's evident that Mr.Dunmunro was just playing games.....(instead of admitting he was simply unable to read Brinkmann KTB) :negative:

Brinkmann clearly says that British opened fire at 05:53 and Germans (both BS and PG) answered at 05:55. Full Stop. End of discussion.
The same says Schmalenbach (he even mentions the number of salvos fired by Hood BEFORE Germans returned fire) and the same the Baron. Jasper just confirms 05:55 as open fire for PG, without mentioning any fall of shots observed from BS before his own open fire. These precise timings, plus Jasper observations during the battle, definitely synchronize British and German timings, allowing to have a single timeline.
So here evidence is indeed overwhelming, but surely NOT in Mr.Dunmunro favor.

I'm NOT much interested in establishing who first pushed the button to open fire between BS and PG after the JD signal (even if photo NH69722 seems to confirm it was actually PG, Mr.Dunmunro is free here to say it was BS to open fire first and I will be glad to concede this point if Mr.Dunmunro admits the 2 minutes delay between British and Germans open fire).
Our timeline will not change for this detail while Mr.Dunmunro will be unable (forever) to propose a reasonable timeline, salvo sequence and RoF for the German ships moving Bismarck open fire from 05:55 to 05:53.

I hope we can close once forever this never-ending discussion, with a German Captain and 3 German Gunnery Officers independently confirming the delay in answering fire. :stop:


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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