Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

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Cag
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Cag » Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:12 am

Hi All

May I ask a stupid question?

The Baron states that 2 minutes passed after the British opened fire and Lindemann said his famous line.

Therefore if we go by the documented testimony we know Hood opened fire at 05.52:30 (Hunter-Terry said 05.52:00).

05.52:30 + 00.02:00 = 05.54:30.
If we allow a further unsubstantiated 20 seconds or so for Lütjens to at last give the order we have 05.54:50 or if stretched further 05.55 (Which is the recorded time of open fire for PG by Jasper) and we know from the Baron the fire was immediate after the order.

I'm also trying to reconstruct the salvo charts, so may I ask Alberto why Bismarck opens fire at 05.55:27 and PG at 05.55:20? This is 50 and 57 seconds after the 2 minute delay quoted by the Baron.

Thanks in advance
Best wishes
Cag.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:11 pm

Hi Mr.Cag,
I have no certainty on the exact timings, my proposal is just trying to fit as many info available as I can.

The Baron stated "seconds became minutes", 2 minutes after Hood open fire Lindemann was heard (by someone else, so the timing may be not exactly precise) saying the famous words, then Lutjens must have hoisted JD and someone in his staff called Lindemann to give permission to fire, Lindemann acknowledged and gave the order over the tannoy.

I would not derive any precise timing from this, I just think (my opinion, again fitting as many info I can) that Hood opened fire in the last seconds of 5:52 and Germans returned fire in the first seconds of 5:55 (this would "approximately" match also PG KTB), however, another timeline may be better fitting the evidences, provided it respects the assumed milestones (I based the salvo chart on Antonio's reconstruction: Hood explosion at around 6:00, deck hit on Hood at minute 5:57 that is for me the most credible).

Paul Cadogan reconstruction (that I don't embrace, but that is a complete one) uses different milestones....


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Herr Nilsson » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:34 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:... "seconds became minutes"...


Just for the record:

"Sekunden wurden zu Minuten" is a common phrase and not to be taken literally. It just means something like "time dragged on". Furthermore, no one would say "seconds became to one minute". One minute would be "minutes" as well.
Regards

Marc

Cag
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Cag » Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:23 pm

Hi All

Thanks Alberto and Herr Nilsson for the replies much appreciated.

I respect your opinion Alberto, is it OK if I go with the British open fire time given by Leach Rowell and McMullen of 05.52:30? If we must stick to milestones this has to be one I think.

I'll still work it out as a chronological time so as to work out specific reload times for gun elevation angles etc.

Thanks again.
Best wishes
Cag.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:08 pm

Hi Mr.Cag,
you are right. Also my salvo chart for Hood puts her open fire at around 5:52:40 (so very close to the official timing, as proposed by Paul's in his Hood salvo chart).

I have to say that I really appreciate your attempt to build a complete and realistic timeline for the salvos of all involved ships: this way we will be able to confront with Antonio's, Paul,s and mine, searching for the most reliable one, with a constructive and positive approach :clap:

IMO, it's not so important which "milestone" we choose to trust and to build the scenario on, what is key is to be able to build (based on the chosen one) a complete battle reconstruction, fitting the most of the evidences.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:56 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Alberto Virtuani,

before any " what if " or " hypothetical battle scenario " new battle timing associated by anybody to any battle event will become a new " milestone " ... it will be a long way to go including a very careful scrutiny, ... be sure about it.

We do have already many available milestones, available on many Official documents that nobody will ever be able to change or move away from the timing provided.

To try to do that with an unsupported new solid evidences approach, ... is like playing a poker hand, ... and pretend to win with a couple of 9's ... against a poker of aces.

The milestones we have already are very solid on timings, ... and I really doubt anybody will be able to change them much.

Anyway, a complete battle re-construction is available already since 2005 :

The following article was written by Antonio Bonomi of Italy. It was originally published (in Italian) in the December 2005 edition of "Storia Militare" (N. 147 - ANNO XIII). It was subsequently translated into English by Antonio with further refinement by Phil Isaacs. We feel that although it is impossible to ever precisely determine all aspects of this battle with 100% certainty, Antonio has nonetheless done an admirable job. The result is one of the more thorough and largely accurate reconstructions of this battle.


http://www.hmshood.com/history/denmarks ... trait1.htm

and

http://www.kbismarck.com/ds-barticle.pdf

in here :

http://www.kbismarck.com/articles.html

I will always be happy to read any new work done by anybody at the same level I did ... or even a better level, ... while as you all know I am working at my revisited second edition version.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Herr Nilsson » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:21 pm

What about "Storia Militare" 281? :think:
Regards

Marc

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:28 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

you asked :

What about "Storia Militare" 281? :think:


It is just a summary of all the many discussions we had in here recently, ... mainly regarding the " Cover Up " and the " Articles of War ", ... on the British side of the battle, ... not the definitive second version of the whole DS battle work.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/STORIA-MILI ... 5972013949

But you should not be surprised about this summary, ... having long discussed with me about it here in.

Bye Antonio :D
Last edited by Antonio Bonomi on Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Herr Nilsson » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:32 pm

Ok, thank you. I couldn't buy it until now, therefore my question.
Regards

Marc

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:33 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

it is in Italian, ... but if you can read it anyhow, ... it will be my pleasure to provide you a way to read it.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Herr Nilsson » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:37 pm

Well, I learned Latin for 7 years... :think:
Regards

Marc

Cag
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Cag » Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:06 pm

Hi All

Hi Alberto thanks you for your kind words. I do believe that with cooperation these kind of things can be ironed out and would like to take the opportunity to congratulate you on your work, it isn't an easy job to do and thank you for your great work and your continued patience and help.

Hi Antonio thank you for your contribution, I am quite happy to accept any constructive criticism or help and also accept that my, in my own opinion, rather insignificant work is at the moment, and may remain, quite hypothetical in nature, I hope following in much the same way as you do of your theory of an Admiralty cover up.

Best wishes
Cag.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:03 pm

Hello everybody,

@ CAG,

the German opening fire at 05.53, like the HMS Hood exploding at 05.58, are just "what if " exercises somebody likes to play with.
We do have Official documents telling us the correct timings of those events : very solid milestones.

The incorrect declarations of RearAdm Wake-Walker ... from Hood First board ( Blake ) to Hood Second board ( Walker ) with " The Plot " ... and Adm Tovey incorrect PoW retreat declaration at 06.13, ... are proven facts, ... available evidences on Official documents.

There is an enormous difference between the 2 things, ... and everybody can very easily realize it.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

dunmunro
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby dunmunro » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:25 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

@ CAG,

the German opening fire at 05.53, like the HMS Hood exploding at 05.58, are just "what if " exercises somebody likes to play with.
We do have Official documents telling us the correct timings of those events : very solid milestones.

The incorrect declarations of RearAdm Wake-Walker ... from Hood First board ( Blake ) to Hood Second board ( Walker ) with " The Plot " ... and Adm Tovey incorrect PoW retreat declaration at 06.13, ... are proven facts, ... available evidences on Official documents.

There is an enormous difference between the 2 things, ... and everybody can very easily realize it.

Bye Antonio :D


They are not "what if" exercises. The "official documents" that we have record the open fire time for Bismarck as being ~0553. The only source that states otherwise is PE's war diary and the timings therein are problematic and not accompanied by a proper GAR.

dunmunro
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Re: Jasper, Schmalenbach and 6 salvos...

Postby dunmunro » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:30 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:

Re. A-arcs, I think it was the first turn that wooded the fore turrets (it's discussed in the same thread I posted above....how tiring to have to repeat each time the same considerations.... :stop: ), but as I admit this is my interpretation, please try to build an alternative COMPLETE salvo chart for PG, respecting the max RoF of 27 secs and Jasper GAR.......


It is only "tiring" when you are trying to defend a contention that doesn't correspond to the available evidence. PE's battlemap doesn't show the forward and director and turrets being wooded until ~0607.

This is just another example of trying to make the facts fit your theory rather than the making the theory fit the facts.


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