Churchill - Bismarck Chase

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.
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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Churchill - Bismarck Chase

Postby Herr Nilsson » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:00 pm

When was it revised?
Regards

Marc

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Churchill - Bismarck Chase

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:19 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

I have no precise informations about it.

The only thing we can see for sure is that it was updated after its first released version, so surely after the 1950.

The Artic Convoy Battle Summary Nr. 22 seems to have been updated on 1954 by Commander Pitcairn-Jones, ... so it could have been on the same period also his work on the Battle Summary Nr 5 on Bismarck.

But it is only my personal opinion about it.

At this point would you mind to agree that your above statement was incorrect ? I mean this one :

... and corrected their mistake in 1950 and changed it to 06:13 again.


The correction from 06.13 to 06.03 was the last one by the Admiralty, ... and has never been corrected back to 06.13 after.

At this point it is very evident ...

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Churchill - Bismarck Chase

Postby Herr Nilsson » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:02 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote:At this point would you mind to agree that your above statement was incorrect ? I mean this one :

... and corrected their mistake in 1950 and changed it to 06:13 again.


The correction from 06.13 to 06.03 was the last one by the Admiralty, ... and has never been corrected back to 06.13 after.



My remark was related to 1948 you're usually mentioning in this regard. (I still rely on you in most cases, you know. And that's no irony.)

Antonio Bonomi wrote:The 06.13 time for the PoW turn away was first written by RearAdmiral Wake-Walker on his report at point 10, this is a fact. Adm Tovey probably took it fromthere and used it on his despatches at point 19, this is another fact. No typo and no errors.
The fact that this time was incorrect was certified by the Admiralty on 1948.


Your 1948 is obviously wrong, therefore my 1950 has to be wrong as well. Hard to say which version is the later one. Let's say it's yours, but then it has to be from at least 1958. In any case I'm wondering why it lasted 16 years and at least 4 revisions to change the original version from 1942, which is IMHO still the more correct one.
Regards

Marc

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Churchill - Bismarck Chase

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:57 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

November 1948 is the year written on the document references we can see on both versions.

But apparently the book was published on 1950 on his original format, ... to be updated later on by Commander Pitcairn-Jones.

Problem is that they did not gave it a new date and reference number as it should have been the case, ... they just wrote the revision/update statement in the middle of that document reference page.

In my personal opinion Commander Pitcairn-Jones did a good work, ... and the update are all correct, ... especially the not credible 06.13 moved back to the more realistic 06.03, ... still incorrect but at least credible, ... referencing the Plan 4.

Even before Pitcairn-Jones updates, ... the German warships open fire was modified to 05.55, ... referencing the German available documents, ... and also this modification is correct, ... and tells the whole story at open fire.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Churchill - Bismarck Chase

Postby dunmunro » Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:51 pm

Roskill's official history of the war at sea states:

All four ships opened fire at a range of about 25,000 yards between 5.52 and 5.53 a.m. and the two German ships concentrated their fire initially on the Hood...

...In these circumstances Captain Leach decided to break off the action and, at 6.13, turned away under cover of smoke...


(Roskill, Stephen. The War at Sea Volume I 1954)

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Re: Churchill - Bismarck Chase

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:34 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

I am really sorry for you Duncan, .... Roskill will never be more " official " than the Admiralty documents and position.

More, ... surely nothing will be more Official than the German original documents and Adm Lutjens message timings.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Churchill - Bismarck Chase

Postby dunmunro » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:38 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

I am really sorry for you Duncan, .... Roskill will never be more " official " than the Admiralty documents and position.

More, ... surely nothing will be more Official than the German original documents and Adm Lutjens message timings.

Bye Antonio :D


Again, lowly officers in the Admiralty Historical Section do not create "official policy or positions" with the stroke of a pen. How difficult is that to understand? They were tasked with assembling the various reports into a readable narrative, using updated information as it came along; they were not tasked with creating official Admiralty policy or positions. The officers in the Historical
Section were acting as historians, albeit ones with access to restricted information, and their opinions were their own.
You mean the message to the KM at 0552: "Am in a fight with two heavy units"* How about the 0555 message to PE?


* This must have been garbled in transmission and must mean something else. Maybe Lutjens was asking the KM for permission to open fire? To scuttle his ships? To relieve him of the terrible burden of command? Possibly it was a Jedi mind trick and it convinced all 3 surviving RN ships that they saw 38cm gun flashes from Bismarck at ~0553, when they really didn't.

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Re: Churchill - Bismarck Chase

Postby wadinga » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:44 am

Hello Antonio,

surely nothing will be more Official than the German original documents


Yes indeed, the PG KTB, the official record, not a quick summary sent over he radio, with information of no relevance to those who received it. 80 seconds give or take. PG's KTB is the document of record considering Bismarck's is at the bottom of the Atlantic.

Do you have the PG KTB typescript? Show us the 06:01 whole line, not the chopped-out timing Alberto has, with the 20 secs hovering indeterminately, but the whole typed out line describing Hood blowing up at 06:01;20........Please! :D

Do they have it in Kew?

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Churchill - Bismarck Chase

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:36 am

Helloeverybody,

@ Dunmunro & Wadinga,

there is no doubt that the Official document everybody must refer to is Adm Lutjens radio message dedicated to those events, ... the Hood explosion and the Bismarck open fire ( engagement duration of almost 5 minutes ), ... so 06.00 and 05.55.

For the Hood explosion time we have long discussed about the Prinz Eugen KTB entry of 20 seconds written between 06.00 and 06.01.
The photo Nh 69724 with the presence of the PoW salvoes 13th and 14th in the air leave no doubts on the correct timing, once associated to the PoW gunnery plot timing. There is a dedicated thread about it ...

Similarly, the photo Nh 69722 associated to Jasper gunnery report leave no doubts to the correct timing of Bismarck opening fire in conjunction with Prinz Eugen,... after the JOT DORA being received and reported by Jasper at 05.55, ... perfectly in line with Adm Lutjens radio message provided timing.

It should be not so difficult to be realized, verified and understood ... by everybody.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Churchill - Bismarck Chase

Postby dunmunro » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:47 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Helloeverybody,

@ Dunmunro & Wadinga,

there is no doubt that the Official document everybody must refer to is Adm Lutjens radio message dedicated to those events, ... the Hood explosion and the Bismarck open fire ( engagement duration of almost 5 minutes ), ... so 06.00 and 05.55.

For the Hood explosion time we have long discussed about the Prinz Eugen KTB entry of 20 seconds written between 06.00 and 06.01.
The photo Nh 69724 with the presence of the PoW salvoes 13th and 14th in the air leave no doubts on the correct timing, once associated to the PoW gunnery plot timing. There is a dedicated thread about it ...

Similarly, the photo Nh 69722 associated to Jasper gunnery report leave no doubts to the correct timing of Bismarck opening fire in conjunction with Prinz Eugen,... after the JOT DORA being received and reported by Jasper at 05.55, ... perfectly in line with Adm Lutjens radio message provided timing.

It should be not so difficult to be realized, verified and understood ... by everybody.

Bye Antonio :D


PE's battle map pretty clearly shows Hood blowing up at ~0601:20:

http://www.hmshood.com/history/denmarks ... tlemap.htm

The battle map also shows a command from Lutjens at 0555 for PE to engage the left hand target. This same command is noted in Bismarck's KTB. Yet it took 4 minutes for Jasper to comply. Not surprisingly there's no "JD" for Bismarck but the notation at ~0553 seems to indicate that Bismarck was engaging Hood.

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Re: Churchill - Bismarck Chase

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:08 pm

Hello everybody,

@Dunmunro,

unfortunately for you the PG entry if read 06.01 and 20 seconds DOES NOT correspond to what the photo Nh 69724 shows.

If read 06.00 and 20 seconds, it DOES correspond to the photo nh 69724, due to PoW salvoes 13th and 14th well visible on the photo.

Facts, evidences, ... not personal opinions, ... the same apply to photo Nh 69722 and BS open fire of course.

More, ... you better read again what the PG battle map tells you about the target assignements by Adm Lutjens to PG, ... and the change of them, ... links ( PoW ), ... rechts ( Hood ) , ... before the JOT DORA order at 05.55, ... and the last PG target change back to links ( PoW ) at 05.59.

You appear a bit confused to me by reading you above, ... while it was clearly explained on my re-construction work back on 2005 already.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )


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