Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by Herr Nilsson »

@ Antonio

Your maps are sometimes hard to read because of the line thickness. Anyway, I think we can rely on most bearings in the plot, if not all, because they are supported by signals.
bearings.jpg
bearings.jpg (102.55 KiB) Viewed 3802 times
I have some problems with Busch, because Busch has a lot of mistakes regarding times. Even if his bearings are right, it's not clear to me when they are taken. Personally I would prefer not use them, but would still keep them in mind. I consider them as not so reliable.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: "You have been repeatedly calling for a map from me for a year and yet you virtually ignore it when it arrives. I am happy for you to pull it apart. It is iteration one. Get to work!"
Hi Sean,
you are wrong, I'm sorry. I have already congratulated you for producing a first attempt of a complete battlemap. :clap:

The problem with it is that you have deliberately ignored the 2 key bearings that close the battlefield: PoW to NF (18° at 5:37) and PG to SF (at around 5:30) without being able to explain why you are ok with the other bearings from the same sources (PoW to BS 334° / PoW to SF 350° at 5:37 and PG to NF 96° / PG to BC1 157° at around 5:30) and only discarding the 2 bearings that are annoying for your agenda. :negative:

you wrote: "The track plot of PoW's own movements has been combined with Pinchin's Norfolk track because the latter was traced from the missing tactical plot. Both were created by the ARL Admiralty Research Laboratory automatic plotting machine."
What's your source for the underlined, please (this would be a great discovery as we desperately miss both Tactical Plots...) ?
Where is it written that the NF track comes from her Tactical Plot ? Does his SF track come from SF Tactical Plot ? It looks to me much like the Strategical one..... :think:
The whole work from Pinchin is very debatable (and you have realized yourself, doing your map, that he couldn't be right with his exaggerated distances). I think Antonio is right suggesting to re-work (for refinement) the tracks respecting the NF Strategical Plot that, despite the scale, show quite a different (and more reliable IMO) track / course for this ship (at least from 5:40 till 6:20).


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

I am ok with all the above bearings you wrote on your example map above.

In addition I think we should add the 185° at BC1 open fire from a Suffolk message, as well as the 06:20 from Norfolk to Suffolk on WW report that Wadinga loves so much and it is also " half/partially " traced correctly by Pinchin, ... and of course for the same reason the 2 famous D/6 and D/7 between Norfolk and Suffolk at 05:36 and 05:41, ... that Pinchin nicely donated " partially/halfway " to us as well, ... not to forget the 28° on Prinz Eugen battle map for Suffolk at 05:50 ... :wink:

I am OK to put on second reliability position the 350° between PoW and Suffolk, the 18° from PoW to Norfolk and the 3 bearings from F.O. Busch on his 1943 book, ... due to a not 100 % perfect time correlations.

Do you agree ? is it OK this way ?

I think that anyhow just using your selected list above, ... we are almost done as well, ... assuming we are using the correct German and BC1 tracks, ... placed in between the Norfolk and Suffolk tracks, ... anyway.

In fact as a confirmation of what I am saying, just using one of the 4 maps posted by me on page 12 of this thread, you can verify yourself many of the bearings you listed on your map are already perfectly respected, ... in association with the ones I was referring to, ... it is enough to add and fit the other ones and with minor adjustments we should be already done.

Please verify yourself all I am saying, ...
Plot_redone_adjusted_bearings_007.jpeg
Plot_redone_adjusted_bearings_007.jpeg (79.49 KiB) Viewed 3792 times
The 220° Norfolk to Hood is there at 05:50 ( needs to be just added on this map ), ... the 276° Norfolk to Bismarck is there with reference D, ... the 334° from PoW to Bismarck at 05:37 is there ( needs to be just added on this map ) ... the 208° at 06:00 between Suffolk and Bismarck is there already with reference F, ... and finally we just need to add 2 last bearings you listed at 05:20 and at 06:15/16 that I miss on my map above, ... since Bismarck track was not covering this part on this map, ... but it will be very easy to do it.

As I told you, ... adding my additional list as you can verify yourself will not change at all the map, ... and everything goes on the correct direction.

Once as I suppose we will be all in agreement about this, ... we can after just evaluate the secondary reliability ones and decide what to do and make sense, ... but I will be more than satisfied with our 100 % agreement on this above map base, ... since the other are only a fine tuning, ... nothing else.

Let me have your opinions, ... Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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wadinga
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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,
PoW to NF (18° at 5:37)
because there is no derivation for the POSITION of Norfolk on the PoW action plot. I have typed POSITION in Capitals not to be rude or shout but to ask where such a position can have come from. The last time I tried I got some stuff about an unrecorded D/F bearing, but as you and I both know a bearing is not a position.
and PG to SF (at around 5:30)
there is no sighting of Suffolk at 05:30. You are quite happy to argue ad infinitum about the ability of someone in Norfolk to see mantlet doors in Hood at 20,000 yds without accepting that another person should be able to identify a 10,000 cruiser instead of a mast at a shorter distance.
without being able to explain why you are ok with the other bearings from the same sources (PoW to BS 334°


Gyro fire control system

/ PoW to SF 350° at 5:37
because there is no derivation for the POSITION of Suffolk on the PoW action plot. I have typed POSITION in Capitals not to be rude or shout but to ask where such a position can have come from. The last time I tried I got some stuff about an unrecorded D/F bearing, but as you and I both know a bearing is not a position.
and PG to NF 96° / PG to BC1 157° at around 5:30)
From the PG KTB 05:47 Alarm, On horizon abeam of portside smoke trails can be observed.

Herr Nilsson puts it succinctly:
I have some problems with Busch, because Busch has a lot of mistakes regarding times. Even if his bearings are right, it's not clear to me when they are taken. Personally I would prefer not use them, but would still keep them in mind. I consider them as not so reliable.
You say:
Pinchin's Norfolk track because the latter was traced from the missing tactical plot.


and
Where is it written that the NF track comes from her Tactical Plot ?
The legend says "Tracing from Plot of Norfolk" is that good enough? Since you have used it as well as a track of Suffolk in a published article, I would have thought you had more faith in it.

I really appreciate your congratulations but would prefer to hear why you think putting the tracks together as I have done can't work, and a similar "blind Trial" breakdown of bearings, but not including the "spurious" 18 and 350, based on your map.

Pinchin's exaggeration: When you are checking on your scaled version of the Pinchin, can you check what he says for the 05:41 distance Norfolk to Bismarck?

On my map:
The distance from Norfolk to Bismarck at 05:41 is 31,000 yds or 15.5 miles bearing 280T. (“At 05:41 Norfolk sighted the enemy at 16 miles. Wake-Walker’s report. “05:41 Enemy in sight 276T” Norfolk’s ship’s log)
All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

I read your post above and if you and Alberto will read mine and Marc too, ... you like everybody else will realize that we you are talking something that will be analyzed after we will agree and the whole scenario that is already well enough depicted on the map I posted here above.

Many of the bearings you are talking about now, ... are already perfectly OK just respecting the well known ones I am currently discussing and in agreement with Marc.

Please be so kind to take a look at it and provide your agreement, so at least we have made a common and good enough step forward.

F.O. Busch and Pitcairn-Jones data, ... we can analyze them after ... once the whole frame will be already agreed and well understood by everybody, ... using the Pinchin tracks for Norfolk and Suffolk and the correct ones, ... so Rowell and the Prinz Eugen battle map, ... for the Germans and BC1.

You have my map done above, ... which includes all the bearings selected by Marc as primary reference and my ones added just on a single map.

Do you agree Sean and Alberto about that map being correct ?

What about CAG and Duncan ? What about RF, Alecsandros, Thorsten ... and all the others ?

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by Cag »

Hi All

Hi Antonio, thanks I'll take a look see later on thank you. I'll go through the Suffolk log and report too as if there is a centre bearing and a right cut of together it may help us.

I have been in contact with a couple of RN signal experts who know about D/F bearings etc, they have promised to get back to me as regards the ins and outs. As far as I can tell only with the introduction of HF/DF in 1942 was it possible to estimate a bearing in seconds.

Before this it took minutes due to various reasons and also dependant on type of unit fitted. Ill keep you informed on what I find out, again it may help.

Hi Herr Nilsson yes good idea as there are principle bearings that I'm sure we can discuss and agree on.

Hi Wadinga, I think you're correct the plot tracks were taken from the plots made. There is a very interesting IWM interview with someone who was a midshipman on PoW who describes how the machine worked and how the plot was destroyed on the 24th.

Thanks again
Best wishes
Cag.
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hi all,
@Antonio,
I agree on your proposal for a set of "undisputable" bearings and let's see what we can reconstruct from them.


@Wadinga:
the legend says "Tracing from Plot of Norfolk" but it does not specify whether the Strategical or the Tactical one. The Suffolk track looks like her Strategical one, while the Norfolk is quite different from her Strategical.......even I admit they can differ for "minor" details at this stage (if you agree with Antonio's proposal as well).

We have used the Pinchin's tracks in the Article ONLY because the Tactical ones from both Norfolk and Suffolk have "disappeared", while the one from PoW is still available for us, despite the battle and the blood...... :think:


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by Cag »

Hi All

Apologies Antonio I missed your post, I'll download that as well thank you.

Hi Alberto, do you have access to the PoW track chart from the 24th? I thought that had been rendered useless by the blood? Do you know the reference as that would be a big help as all I have are the ones from the 29th and Rowells and the plan 4 one. Any help again much appreciated. Thank you in advance,

Best wishes
Cag.
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Hi Mr. Cag,
sorry my mistake. I was referring to the same document as you mention, that are available and that luckily are much more detailed and large scale than a Strategical Plot, therefore we used them in the Article.
Basically for Norfolk and Suffolk we have nothing similar..... therefore the choice for them is to rely on Pinchin's tracks or on their Strategical Plot.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by Cag »

Hi All

Hi Alberto no problem, the maps made by the Instructor Lieutenant do show some minor errors (we know that PoW log says 00.15hrs and Leach says 00.17hrs for the turn onto 000° but the map says that the course was 000° at 23.59hrs) which can be accounted for by perhaps the originals being somewhat illegible.

Yes I agree that these are all we have, we are lucky that at least they decided to keep them. A lot of really important documents were sadly destroyed post war so we must count our blessings I guess!

Best wishes
Cag.
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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by Cag »

Hi All

Hi Antonio just a quick question which I apologise in advance if you have already answered this.

PoW and Hood excecuted a turn onto 300° at 05.49hrs, on your map this occurs between 05.50 and 05.51 is there a reason for this?

If I've missed something I apologise and will amend my map accordingly if neccessary.

Thanks in advance

Best wishes
Cag.
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ CAG,

I have just used the PoW available tracks on the known official maps.

Please feel free to show us your map, tracks and we will decide if it is better and more precise.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by Cag »

Hi All

Hi Antonio, just to say I wasn't questioning your map, just asking if you had the turn timings on your map worked out better than the original, ie if you had worked out a correct time for the total process of the turn (e.g. started at 05.49 completed at 05.50,30).

But no worries I can continue to use the one where the turn is at 05.49. Sorry if it appeared otherwise,

Best wishes
Cag.
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ CAG,

it is OK tho challenge and question my map, both the one on my 2005 article as well as the 2017 February one on Storia Militare Nr 281, ... since they were both made just to show the situation with no intention to be so precise and perfect, ... and in fact I have improved a lot them since.

Your analysis can bring to an improvement on those tracks, ... so please go ahead.

Our common goal as said is to agree about Herr Nillson proposed bearings set map and my one just down below.
All those bearings are Official and what is most important they can be easily traced on a unique map as I have demonstrated.

Pitcairn-Jones Battle Summary Nr 5 on Plan 4 and F.O. Busch book bearing inputs are frozen for the moment.

It should be the first step to stop discussing about what cannot be discussed any longer and agree about a common base, ... enabling further and better analysis from that point onward.

I can hardly see somebody in disagreement about what Herr Nillson and myself have posted above, ... but still I like everybody written opinions.

Thanks and bye, ... Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ all,

it seems to me that NOT having any arguments like : dementia; brain tumor, heremit lifestyle, poor old sailor writings, propaganda, ... etc etc etc ... there is NO willingness to accept the main bearings as they are on the Official documents.

How the " deniers " can refute after the acceptance what a correct enough map will show us ?

They will be forced to accept it, ... with all the logic consequences, ... and this will only confirm the intentional alteration of the Official document we have already well demonstrated with " The Plot ".

Better to remain silent, ... low profile and let the time pass, ... maybe everybody will forget about it.

NO ! ... not at all, ... :negative: ... no one will forget about it and the silence is speaking loud better than thousand words.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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