Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:45 pm

Dunmunro wrote: "As I stated above, Norfolk was at sea on 28 May 1941 so the recording could not have been made on that date."
why? Apparently Norfolk did have recording facilities on board (propaganda works on both sides).
In any case in no way the interview may have been recorded years or even months after, please listen to it carefully especially point 1 highlighted by Antonio.... :negative:


Bye, Alberto
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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by dunmunro » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:01 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Dunmunro wrote: "As I stated above, Norfolk was at sea on 28 May 1941 so the recording could not have been made on that date."
why? Apparently Norfolk did have recording facilities on board (propaganda works on both sides).
In any case in no way the interview may have been recorded years or even months after, please listen to it carefully especially point 1 highlighted by Antonio.... :negative:


Bye, Alberto
Voice recording technology was in it's infancy in 1941 and the only recordings available from on board HM ships were those recorded by specialist teams that were assigned to the ship by the Admiralty or by a film/newsreel studio. Norfolk was not carrying such a team.

The recording must have been made ashore at some time after Norfolk docked on 30 May 1941.

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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by wadinga » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:58 am

Hello Alberto,

You keep ignoring Norfolk's Ship's Log, written precisely at the time of action, which agrees with W-W's report written a few days later. This is unsurprising since he would have kept a journal in parallel with the Ship's Log with the same factual information to which he would have referred when composing his report dated 5th of June. Why would an off-the-cuff interview, presumably for the BBC or Pathe News at some indeterminate time after docking, overturn the precision of written, attested reports?

I had forgotten that this fine officer, awarded honours and promoted for his "Admirable" work in the Bismarck Chase, died after masterminding the production of landing craft as Third Sea Lord, as Duncan has reminded us as early as 1945. The dating on the audio report is undoubtedly wrong.
All the best

wadinga
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:15 am

Hello everybody,

@ all,

it should not be a big problem to find out precisely when the interview was recorded and by whom, where, ... since the interview is still available and the IWM is a very good and reliable organization.

As Alberto showed the date label even on the IWM website seems to point to May 28th, 1941, ... but lets find it out more precisely, ... :wink:

But despite the date, ... what is important is the content, ... were it is not such a scoop the opening firing sequence declared by WW, since it was written on his report too dated June 4th, 1941, ... but the direct admission of the fact that he knew very well since soon after 5 am that the smoke appearing at the horizon on his port bow were the Hood and the PoW.

According to Russel Grenfell book at page 39, ... that occurred at a quarter past five, ... so at 05.15, ... precisely at 05.16 according to WW official report, ... which avoided to declare it on his later official report, ... but added a statement declaring he realized that only later on ... :shock: ... as Alberto is correctly underlining above.

That is the scoop ! ... the direct WW admission of the fact that more than half an hour before Hood and PoW opened fire on the enemy, ... on board the Norfolk there was the complete awareness of what was going to happen soon after.

This is exactly what I have re-constructed with the tracks analysis ... thanking the declared available bearings, ... and the distances, .. among the various warships on both sides.

There are also many other very interesting statements declared by WW on that interview, ... but we have time to comment on those later on ... :wink:

Opinions welcome ...

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:42 am

Hi all,
@ Sean,
the Norfolk log does NOT record the first sighting of the smoke that Wake-Walker "knew must be the Hood and the PoW" for his own admission, and not to an oiler as you were "suggesting". The Norfolk log just records the sighting of the enemy and the clear IDENTIFICATION of the Hood and PoW.
The official report is written on June 5. The interview is dated 28 May 1941: we never put in doubt that the PG film was recorded on May 24, therefore I don't see any reason for which the W-W recording date AND place (clearly indicated) should be questioned....

In addition, the tone of voice of the W-W interview is exactly what you would expect from a flag officer on board his flagship, not a relaxed conversation happening much time after the events.

The whole interview (including point 1,2,3,4 and 6) confirms my "perplexities" about an officer that IMO had a great career only due to his "family relations", and is in line with the severe judgement of Adm Roger Backhouse contained in Wake-Walker personal record (plus you can see the severe reprimands received by this guy from the Admiralty and the legal processes he had to face due to his negligence during his career). His behavior during the whole chase of Bismarck was passive, deprived of leadership and dull, to say the least.


@Duncan,
electrical voice recording facilities were already available since 1925, while the "acoustic" devices were diffused since the second half of 19th century, even available at home. We didn't know that they were present on board Norfolk, but apparently they were (among the ship equipment or the admiral personal staff). In any case, even if the date is wrong (and this MUST be demonstrated....), the interview may have been realized soon after Norfolk came to the Clyde on May 29 or 30 as you suggest now :wink: , for sure (see point 1) it was done immediately and not after months/years.


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by dunmunro » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:00 am

Alberto Virtuani wrote:Hi all,


@Duncan,
electrical voice recording facilities were already available since 1925, while the "acoustic" devices were diffused since the second half of 19th century, even available at home. We didn't know that they were present on board Norfolk, but apparently they were (among the ship equipment or the admiral personal staff). In any case, even if the date is wrong (and this MUST be demonstrated....), the interview may have been realized soon after Norfolk came to the Clyde on May 29 or 30 as you suggest now :wink: , for sure (see point 1) it was done immediately and not after months/years.


Bye, Alberto

If you listen to the other recordings you will discover that they were all either made in BBC recording studios or by mobile BBC recording teams. There was no such team on board Norfolk.

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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by dunmunro » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:02 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote:

That is the scoop ! ... the direct WW admission of the fact that more than half an hour before Hood and PoW opened fire on the enemy, ... on board the Norfolk there was the complete awareness of what was going to happen soon after.
So W-W knew exactly what Lutjens was going to do?

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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:08 am

Dunmunro wrote: "If you listen to the other recordings you will discover that they were all either made in BBC recording studios or by mobile BBC recording teams. There was no such team on board Norfolk."
Hi Duncan,
so, do you say that both the date AND the place are wrong ? :negative:
We don't know exactly what was on board Norfolk as admiral "equipment" in addition to his staff, maybe a mobile BBC recording team was present. On board PG we had film maker, photographs and even a painter, for propaganda reasons. I don't see any reason why the date and the place should be wrong.

In any case 28, 29 or even 30 May will change nothing to this discussion.


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:11 am

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

you wrote :
So W-W knew exactly what Lutjens was going to do?
Obviously not, ... that was going to ask for too much to this Officer.

The point here is that he was supposed to know what he was going to do with his 1st Cruiser Squadron at 05.16, ... so with Norfolk and Suffolk, ... and provide orders accordingly.

What he did, ... or did not, ... from 05.16 until the end of the DS battle, ... is the current evaluation to be made.

On this regard we have the Baron evaluation contained on his book, ... as he was ordered to carefully look at the 2 British heavy cruisers by Adm Lutjens, ... because he was expecting some initiatives from them obviously, ... but it never happened.

Of course your opinion is more than welcome ...

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by dunmunro » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:38 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

you wrote :
So W-W knew exactly what Lutjens was going to do?
Obviously not, ... that was going to ask for too much to this Officer.

The point here is that he was supposed to know what he was going to do with his 1st Cruiser Squadron at 05.16, ... so with Norfolk and Suffolk, ... and provide orders accordingly.

What he did, ... or did not, ... from 05.16 until the end of the DS battle, ... is the current evaluation to be made.

On this regard we have the Baron evaluation contained on his book, ... as he was ordered to carefully look at the 2 British heavy cruisers by Adm Lutjens, ... because he was expecting some initiatives from them obviously, ... but it never happened.

Of course your opinion is more than welcome ...

Bye Antonio :D

W-W might have suspected that the smoke was Holland's force, but he did not know that for certain and he did not know what tactics Holland would adopt (how could he since he was not in communication with Holland nor had they discussed it prior to Norfolk sailing for the Denmark Straits) or the exact composition of Holland's force. Nor did he know what Lutjen's reaction would be, although he certainly had to plan for the possibility that Lutjens would turn and run directly towards Norfolk and Ellis had the same fear, hence Suffolk's 360d turn.

The only thing that W-W knew with complete certainty was that the open fire sequence was Hood, Bismarck, PoW and then PE since W-W was an eyewitness to those events but that is the salient fact that you refuse to accept.

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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by dunmunro » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:47 am

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Dunmunro wrote: "If you listen to the other recordings you will discover that they were all either made in BBC recording studios or by mobile BBC recording teams. There was no such team on board Norfolk."
Hi Duncan,
so, do you say that both the date AND the place are wrong ? :negative:
We don't know exactly what was on board Norfolk as admiral "equipment" in addition to his staff, maybe a mobile BBC recording team was present. On board PG we had film maker, photographs and even a painter, for propaganda reasons. I don't see any reason why the date and the place should be wrong.

In any case 28, 29 or even 30 May will change nothing to this discussion.


Bye, Alberto
I know that it was none of the above dates.* I hope it was early June 1941, because it then adds more credence to the open fire sequence amongst the four ships, which is the only fact of any consequence in the recording.

*Do you really think that a BBC team was present on Norfolk on the morning of 24 May 1941?

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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:02 am

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

assuming that he knew what he was doing by shadowing the enemy, ... by just using the Suffolk in reality to do so, as he admitted on his recorded declaration too, ... and what Holland with the BC1 force was supposed to do once had intercepted the enemy, ... since he surely participate to the briefing in Scapa Flow before sailing, and probably had instructed the Suffolk accordingly, ... we know what he did : nothing but watching the events.

Surely he did not do his utmost to bring his warships in action, ... surely he did not provide any orders to anybody ( as we know today ), ... surely he did not open fire once having seen Prinz Eugen participating into the battle, ... surely he did not ask Capt. Leach to come back re-engaging with his 2 heavy cruisers once he have been noticed by the light damages on PoW and his recovered guns availability.

We all know that WW declarations are far to be 100 % reliable, ... unfortunately, ... and most of the time self contadictory too, ... see first vs second board distances.

Please tell me what you see on photo NH 69722, and in case we can re-open the German open fire sequence discussion if you do not understand what you are looking at in there.

Adm Lutjens JD order timing is clear, ... what happened after is well visible on the photo NH 69722, ... no doubts.

Bye Antonio :D
Last edited by Antonio Bonomi on Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:14 am

Dunmunro wrote: "I know that it was none of the above dates."
Hi Duncan,
you cannot know at all, you just hope.... The only evidence available is the date of the recording from BBC: 28 May 1941.
Do you have any proof that there was not a recording device on board Norfolk ? :negative:

Whatever date, it's irrelevant. This declaration CONTRADICTS the official report as clearly "we knew this (the smoke seen at 5:16) MUST be the Hood and the PoW". But we are used to this officer contradicting himself (e.g. the estimated distance of Hood at explosion time).... :oops:


Bye, Alberto
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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by dunmunro » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:16 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

assuming that he knew why he was doing by shadowing the enemy, ... by just using the Suffolk in reality to do so, as he admitted on his recorded declaration too, ... and what Holland with the BC1 force was supposed to do once had intercepted the enemy, ... since he surely participate to the briefing in Scapa Flow before sailing, and probably had instructed the Suffolk accordingly, ... we know what he did : nothing but watching the events.

Surely he di not do his utmost to bring his warship in action, ... surely he did not provide any order ( as we know today ), ... surely he did not open fire once having seen Prinz Eugen participating into the battle, ... surely he did not ask Capt. Leach to come back re-engaging with his 2 heavy cruisers once he have been noticed by the light damages on PoW and his recovered guns availability.

We all know that WW declarations are far to be 100 % reliable, ... unfortunately, ... and most of the time self contadictory too, ... see first vs second board distances.

Please tell me what you see on photo NH 69722, and in case we can re-open the German open fire sequence discussion if you do not understand what you are looking at in there.

Adm Lutjens JD order timing is clear, ... what happened after is well visible on the photo NH 69722, ... no doubts.

Bye Antonio :D
we know exactly what happened on Norfolk because of the reports submitted from that ship. We know that Norfolk was outside effective gunnery range during the entire action. PoW, while under W-W's orders engaged Bismarck twice after the DS battle.

Do you have a copy of Norfolk's log? If so then it should be easy to pinpoint when Norfolk (and W-W) was in Scapa flow at the same time as Hood and Holland. I've never found any evidence that W-W was privy to Holland's plan for the engagement, and even if he did know the plan perfectly, and was in telepathic contact with Lutjens he still could not close on Bismarck until she was engaged by Holland.

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Re: Bismarck original KTB still existing ?

Post by dunmunro » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:18 am

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Dunmunro wrote: "I know that it was none of the above dates."
Hi Duncan,
you cannot know at all, you just hope.... The only evidence available is the date of the recording from BBC: 28 May 1941.
Do you have any proof that there was not a recording device on board Norfolk ? :negative:

Whatever date, it's irrelevant. This declaration CONTRADICTS the official report as clearly "we knew this (the smoke seen at 5:16) MUST be the Hood and the PoW". But we are used to this officer contradicting himself (e.g. the estimated distance of Hood at explosion time).... :oops:


Bye, Alberto
The recording was made by the BBC, so there would have had to be a BBC team on board Norfolk, and there was not.

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