The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:14 pm

Hello everybody,

@ all,

I wrote and agreed with Herr Nillson to avoid at the beginning to use both the Pitcairn-Jones Plan 4 bearings as well as F.O. Busch book ones.

The D/6 and D/7 from Pichin original plot are valid bearings, and they are both respected with the above map.

At the end both the 230°visual bearing at 06:00 and the 220°visual bearing at 05:50 will be respected, ... together with all the above mentioned ones and with the visual 05:53 bearings from Norfolk to Bismarck and Prinz Eugen.

YES, very likely all ( including the Prinz Eugen one at 05:50 ) the first 7 bearings listed above were visual and not R. D/F, ... so the tolerance problem as I wrote several times is simply not existing on this moment with those bearings.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Postby Cag » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:49 pm

Hi All

As I stated in my earlier post we must be careful in identifying what the bearing was to, and what times they were taken.

The 05.50 log entry 220° is to Hood and PoW ie both ships. We don't know what course Norfolk was on but we know BC1 was on 300°. Both ships are mentioned so we might assume this was a centre bearing? We can estimate Hood's position from the PoW track if need be?

The 05.59 WW report 230° is to Hood exploding. Tying this down may be harder to do.

We do have other bearings especially to Bismarck on the GAR of PoW but again the timing is an issue.

Best wishes
Cag.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:59 pm

Hello everybody,

@ CAG,

now you got it right, since you correctly wrote :

... We don't know what course Norfolk was on ...


This is by far the most inaccurate input we have, ... in fact I do not trust that " large arc " that Pinchin depicted and the track until 06:00 and soon after, ... and I trust more the Norfolk strategical map track we can see there on this timeframe, ... and once that will be transferred into the above map, ... substituting partially the Pinchin traced " large arc " ... it will most likely solution both the 220° as well as the 230°, ... and more ... :wink:

Food for your thoughts and comparison .... :think:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:39 pm

Cag wrote: "The 05.50 log entry 220° is to Hood and PoW ie both ships"

Hi Mr.Cag,
due to the relative positions of the 2 British battleships, it looks like the difference between their 2 bearings as seen from Norfolk at 05:50 is very limited (if any), while it looks more evident as seen from German point of view.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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wadinga
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Postby wadinga » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:05 pm

Hello Antonio,

So now you do not "trust" what has been extensively described by just two contributors as the "shameful" arc, which incidentally puts Norfolk at 05:50 further east ie away from Bismarck. I am not really clear why. :? Oh yes :cool:

Instead you prefer to blow up a tiny segment of the generalized track from the strategical map which is scaled to cover the entire eastern Altantic chart 2026A! Instead of a scale of 1" to 5 miles, which is one of the scales available on the ARL plotter, further confirming this is traced from a live automatic plot, you prefer to use something which is more like 1" to 30 (?) miles, almost certainly hand drawn, and of a scale which cannot but suppress the short duration manoeuvres like Norfolk's 5 minute charge at the enemy, because they are invisible at this scale.

The D/6 and D/7 from Pichin original plot are valid bearings, and they are both respected with the above map.


If, if they were D/R bearings at all, and if they were "first class" D/R bearings they would be + or - 3 degrees, and therefore of little use at the level of detail we are attempting.

Unlike the British ships' example, from Norfolk's point of view, the enemy were quite widely spaced which might explain why 276T and 280T are recorded for enemy in sight.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Postby Cag » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:31 pm

Hi All

Thanks Antonio and Alberto much appreciated.

Hi Wadinga just to say that I may have to invest in the PG map as the one I have is too small to scale up with accuracy. That is my struggle at the moment.

The problem is I need to get the scale correct as I'm trying to do it the old fashioned way, ie by hand, to do it how it would have been done then. Obviously the British scales are in inches to nautical miles and have some method of scaling the map, I need to scale up my PG map accurately to match 1852 metres to a sea mile!

If I get the 1 to 1 map at 1cm to 500m I think I'll stand a chance, the only references are 17sm to Hood and I can't make out the hm references (05.55 could be 202hm?) It would in any event be too inaccurate if scaled up.

I can scale the PoW maps to the Pinchin one with a good degree of accuracy.

I'll keep a trying

Best wishes
Cag

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:44 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

you are getting my point.

I do not trust the Pinchin " large arc " being a possible manoeuvre as we see changing a course of 20° from 240° to 220° course in 14 minutes time, ... mostly because it does not match the 2 declared bearings of 220° at 05:50 and 230° at 06:00.

It is without any doubt an incorrect track and I cannot consider any valid alternative other than the strategical map of Norfolk, ... obviously having the Norfolk tactical map we miss, ... everything was going to be much easier for us.

Modifying it in this direction we can have a more acceptable track and match both the 220° and 230° bearings reported on the Official documents, ... while simply using the Pinchin original track we cannot as you can see above, ... being incorrect as said.

Regarding D/6 and D/7 bearings, ...those are what we have thanking Pinchin in this case, ... and those are what we are going to use, ... and you know that 320° was also the bearing between Norfolk and Suffolk on the Norfolk strategical map at 05:41, ... so it is double confirmed too.

The tolerances are built in the overall map as nobody pretends to be 100% perfect on everything we do.

You are correct about the 276° and 280° different inputs we have on Norfolk war diary and enemy in sight radio message respectively. This is an input we can use to do our analysis ... :think: ... even if you must remember we have to keep in consideration the very close next 2 available bearings at 05:53 toward Bismarck and Prinz Eugen we have too, ... precisely, ... and of course the Gunnery distances at open fire ( 05:53 ) and at cease fire 16 minutes later at 06:09 ( Ref, Norfolk Gunnery ).

I personally think that we do have all is needed to modify, correct and build up a much better Norfolk track.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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wadinga
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Postby wadinga » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:30 am

Hello Antonio,

Once again we have:

and you know that 320° was also the bearing between Norfolk and Suffolk on the Norfolk strategical map at 05:41


yes and I have seen the strategical map too, and I have no way of understanding how a reliable position could be created, since Norfolk got no correct positioning information from Suffolk at all, and only a visual bearing at 06:20. If there were any useful D/Fs done they would render only a single line of position LOP which cannot on its own create a position

The triangle is merely a best guess.

You have still not said why you do not trust Pinchin's track yet you are prepared:

...
Regarding D/6 and D/7 bearings, ...]those are what we have thanking Pinchin in this case, ... and those are what we are going to use


I believe 220T steering and a 220T sighting are clearly compatible as W-W heads towards the distant smoke and the much more distant reported position of PoW's enemy in sight to see if they are one and the same.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:53 am

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

you are right, a single bearing cannot give you a position unless you have other bearings fixing a track of a ship given her course and speed.
WW himself explained on his report to us how they were able on Norfolk to keep their course based on the Suffolk bearings and that is exactly what we are using in this case.

Suffolk position is defined very well based on multiple bearings and based on her very reliable position now, we can realize the Norfolk position in relation to Suffolk at 05:41, ... Norfolk had Suffolk at 320° or 319° trusting more the D/6 on Pinchin plot, ... so as you all can see a very minimum tolerance too, ... :wink:

As I have told you several times this one and the 06:20 one are 2 milestones to position the Norfolk track, ... and PInchin track once positioned this way, ... as originally traced, ... simply does not match both 220° at 05:50 and 230° at 06:00, ... as simple as that, ... this is the reason why I do not trust her and we need to modify her based on Norfolk strategical plot, ... missing the Norfolk tactical plot.


Analyzing the Norfolk course on her strategical plot, ... that " large arc " on PInchin is not so trustable, ... and the strategical seems to suggest a 215° T course, ... followed after by a 245°-250° T course closing on the enemy before going back to 215° T after Hood exploded, ... :think: ...while on " The Plot " we have the " large arc " almost 220° ... than 270°... a real 220°, ... another "large arc" and 230° ... and another " large arc " ... :think: ... and a " large arc " also for the Hood track too ... :shock:

Lucky us now the German tracks and the Hood/PoW are well available tracks and positions to refer to, ... and this completely change the scenario and the exercise that one can do.

Now as said above, ... while respecting the 2 bearings to Suffolk at 05:41 ( 320°) and 06:20 ( 335°), ... the ones to Hood at 05:50 ( 220°) and 06:00 ( 230°) ... and the ones to the enemy at 05:41 ( 276°-280°) at 05:53 ( 275° to BS and 272° to PG ) and at 06:12 ( 272° ), ... and all those bearings after the first 320° from Pinchin and Strategical are for sure visual bearings, ... so very trustable.

Having Norfolk speed and approx course and all the above bearings and correct references, ... it should not be so difficult to reproduce with a very good approx the Norfolk real run track now.

I add just 2 personal interpretations and intuitions that I think are not so far away from reality, .... first the bearings traced on the Norfolk by Pinchin plot original map are a black straight line when they are visual ... like 05:41; 05:53; 06:12; 06:36 and the very important diagonal 06:20 to Suffolk, ... and intermittent lien when they are R. D/F, like 05:40-41 ( D/6) and 05:36 ( D/7 ) ...and second that at the end once traced respecting all the above parameters and data, ... the Norfolk track will look more like teh strategical map one rather than the Pinchin "large arcs" traced one on " The Plot ".

Anyway, ... we can all realize it pretty soon, ... lets work on it ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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wadinga
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Postby wadinga » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:22 am

Hello Antonio,

What does this mean?

Suffolk position is defined very well based on multiple bearings and based on her very reliable position now


There are no multiple bearings. The technique you seem to be talking of is a "running fix" which can only be used on stationary objects. If Suffolk had somehow anchored (in the middle of the Atlantic!) and sent several transmissions from the same spot, as Norfolk sailed by, it would be possible to draw several LOP, one from each transmission, which would intersect in the vicinity of Suffolk, allowing a so-called "cocked hat" where she will likely be, to be drawn from Norfolk's track. But she isn't stationary. As Cag has observed the LOPs on a moving object cannot converge, as you very well know from studying PoW's attempts to D/F |Suffolk which are confined to the early morning. As Cag says, virtually parallel lines equals no fix.

W-W explained that he had some idea of where Suffolk was from D/F because she was "somewhere to starboard" and sailing down the course she was reporting. Somewhere to starboard means somewhere between Norfolk and the Greenland coast. You can "tell me" as many times as you like about milestones, but you can't use bearings to Suffolk to position Norfolk because nobody knows where Suffolk is.

You can only position Norfolk relative to Holland and that is best done doing the 06:36 conjunction and Pinchin's track, undoubtedly traced from the ARL plot.

This respects the 220T very well, just as might be expected, and taking bearings from an exploded wreck is not a reliable datum.

All the best

wadinga
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Postby Alberto Virtuani » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:28 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote: "....that " large arc " on PInchin is not so trustable...."

Hi Antonio,
absolutely correct. It's difficult to imagine an order given to the helmsman to put the rudder 0.5° to port :shock: in order to perform a 14 minutes long turn of... just 20° (course changing by 1.5° per minute :shock:, just a too a high precision maneuver for any ship)...... :negative:

Whether the real course of Norfolk will result (from your analysis) in a "better" one than the "shameful arc", it will be another story. :think:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:18 am

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

you seem to forget that we are having speed, course and tracks of the ships we are talking about, and the bearings now are only used to correctly position among them what we already have, ... with minor corrections, .... mainly due to the fact that instead of using the available at that time tactical plots of Norfolk and Suffolk and go with them to the second Hood board, ... somebody decided to ask Pinchin to create " The Plot " for the well known reasons, ... and the Norfolk and Suffolk tactical plots disappeared from everybody availability immediately after, ... :wink:

Anyhow, ... here it is the reference once again and by only making now the minimum basic tracks modifications, ... thanking now the correct use of available German ships and BC1 warships, ... using the well known visual bearings, ... we will confirm the R. D/F bearings too and realize a much better and precise map of this battle, ... starting from the utilization of the available Norfolk and Suffolk tracks and referencing their strategical plots ... again due to the fact that we miss unfortunately their tactical plots.

Plot_redone_bearing_01.jpeg
Plot_redone_bearing_01.jpeg (85.66 KiB) Viewed 181 times


Is it clear enough to you now the process we will be using and why it is the best, more reliable and supported by available evidence one we can use ?

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:44 am

Hello everybody,

referencig the above map and explanation here is what I propose for everybody analysis, verification and suggestion.

Here the Norfolk strategical map track :

Norfolk_bearing_0541_from_own_original_map_grid.jpg
Norfolk_bearing_0541_from_own_original_map_grid.jpg (33.93 KiB) Viewed 100 times


Once we use the inputs provided by the Norfolk strategical map and we merge them on top of the Pinchin traced track on " The Plot" as originally created, we obtain the following modifications needed :

Plot_redone_bearing_02.jpeg
Plot_redone_bearing_02.jpeg (66.83 KiB) Viewed 100 times


To make it easy for everybody to check it we are having : from course 240° at 05:35 -> on course 215°after 05.41 -> on course 250° after 05:53 -> back on course 215° after 06:00 -> on course 250° after 06:35 -> and on course 230° after 06:45.

NOTE : On GREEN color you can see some Norfolk track position verification bearings from the NEW Norfolk track in BLUE to all the other warships perfectly respected. As you can see we are having very minimum modifications to the original track by Pinchin and we are now respecting the Norfolk official strategical plot track above, ... and mostly we are now FULLY respecting ALL the visual bearings with ALL the other warships on the battlefield.

Opinions welcome ...

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Postby Herr Nilsson » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:36 pm

That means Norfolk was was very close to Hood's sinking position between 06:30 and 06:40?
Regards

Marc

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Postby Antonio Bonomi » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:37 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

you wrote :

That means Norfolk was was very close to Hood's sinking position between 06:30 and 06:40 ?


You are rising an interesting point that brings me back to my initial analysis and information researches.

Hood exact sinking position, the exact 2 times radio communicated positions of Hood sinking place, and different between them, using the Norfolk navigating officer inputs in relation to Norfolk geographical position and her debris field drifting on the ocean have been very carefully analyzed by David Mearns on his book at pages 110 to 116 for the messages and from pages 186 to 188 with the scheme of it at page 187.

It does not have to surprise much that the Norfolk Navigating Officer Ltnt Cdr Tod plotted her so close to the presumed Norfolk gegraphical position on his strategical, ... that was in error of 7 sea miles to the southwest compared to where Norfolk really was on that moment, ... so on Norfolk they assumed being more on the Northeast compared to where they really were.

Just my personal opinion based on what we can realize about it, ... and I fully agree with David Mearns analysis about it.

Anyway, ... I only took Ltnt Cdr Tod track of Norfolk and his traced course and course changes, ... and once correctly positioned we can realize now how far away to south of the Hood wreck position Norfolk sailed, ... trying to realize her position only based on her Hood drifting debris.

To close this doubt we have PoW input at 06:34 telling us where Norfolk was in relation to PoW as underlined several times to me by Wadinga, ... and respected on this new track ... and this should close any concern about it being PoW track the correct reproduction of where she left Hood sinking and where she met the Norfolk at 06:34, ... one and a half mile ahead of her now on course 250° with PoW following the Norfolk, ... if I recall correctly.

The Norfolk visual taken bearing toward the enemy at 06:36 and the Norfolk war diary entry at 06:40 mentioning PoW having joined her ... should be more than enough to close definitively any doubt.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )


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