The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

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wadinga
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:24 pm

Hello Alberto,

Admitted what exactly? :?

After kind permission by yourself and Antonio I have created a map using your tracks which reflects my current opinions:
The distance from Norfolk to PoW at 05:41 is 32,500 yds or 16.3 miles bearing 208T degrees.
The distance from Norfolk to Bismarck at 05:41 is 31,000 yds or 15.5 miles bearing 280T. (“At 05:41 Norfolk sighted the enemy at 16 miles. Wake-Walker’s report. “05:41 Enemy in sight 276T” Norfolk’s ship’s log)
and
The distance from Norfolk to Bismarck at 05:50 is 30,000yds or 15 miles on 280.3T degrees


etc etc

I feel no need to flatten the traced track of Norfolk to a straight line from 06:00 through 06:20 and resulting in an unnecessary (and unrecorded) turn to starboard of 35 degrees at 06:36. PoW has just spent the last 15 minutes manoeuvring around a circle to take station astern of Norfolk and somehow steadies on the correct heading before Norfolk even turns onto it according to Antonio's latest iteration. Obviously a brief period of unconsciousness has given Leach clairvoyant powers.

If you take the traced track of Norfolk and merely shift it to the NE there are excellent bearing correlations, and the most glaring ie the 300 degrees to Hood's wreck is easily explained as Antonio has postulated:
My personal guess is that Tod incorrectly estimated the real Hood sinking position
Since Antonio knows the Real Hood wreck position he doesn't need to guess. :wink:

The poorly drawn "star" on the Strategical plan is in no way meant to accurately place Hood's wreck on this small scale plan either in absolute terms or relative to Norfolk's track. It is merely an annotation along the track covering many hundreds of miles from the Arctic to the Western Approaches. There is also no representation of Crazy Ivan or the imaginary torpedo dodging movements by the Germans either. At this scale there is no point, because the purpose is to show the overall picture, not the fine detail. I believe several features, including the 03:10 Norfolk avoidance are exaggerated in representation to make them visible at all. The Strategical map is largely useless to us at the level of precision we hope to achieve.

Suffolk's strategical does show Crazy Ivan and the torpedo avoidance manoeuvre and she circles at 06:29 NW of the start of Crazy Ivan, not SW as Antonio has recently represented.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

Cag
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Post by Cag » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:59 pm

Hi All

If the feeling is that you wish to move on to the Suffolk track please do not wait for me, I'm still on Norfolk and positioning her as regards her other bearings, ie to Bismarck and PoW later.

Once this is done I can fit the PoW track alongside Hood and see how this fits with Norfolks bearings. From that I can correlate the PoW and Hood sighting bearings and PoW gunnery bearings with Norfolks 05.41 sighting bearing. Also I'd like to check the Prinz Eugen track and torpedo track bearings too I think.

Hopefully then on to Suffolks bearings!

If I can get to a point where all bearings match and it fits with Antonio's Herr Nilssons and Wadingas maps I'll be happy! Doing this in between work and home life is hard though!

Best wishes
Cag.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:24 pm

Wadinga wrote: "Admitted what exactly? "
Wadinga wrote on Oct 26, 2017 at 12:44 (my bold): "....with Bismarck in sight to starboard (at 13 miles, which is between 12-15, on the latest A & A map by my measurement) and yet PoW reporting herself a long way away on the port bow somewhere, which may something to do with the distant smoke, W-W drifts gently away to the southward for a few minutes, whilst maintaining sight on the enemy. Once BC1 is sighted, I measure 13 miles on the latest A & A, Norfolk closes to as little as 12 miles on the enemy by my measurement.....
Wadinga (quoting himself) wrote on September 26, 2017 at 19:24 (my bold) : " ....The distance from Norfolk to Bismarck at 05:41 is 31,000 yds or 15.5 miles bearing 280T. (“At 05:41 Norfolk sighted the enemy at 16 miles. Wake-Walker’s report. “05:41 Enemy in sight 276T” Norfolk’s ship’s log) and the distance from Norfolk to Bismarck at 05:50 is 30,000yds or 15 miles on 280.3T degrees"
Hi Sean,
sorry I'm totally lost here. :?

I was thinking that you were following Antonio's reasoning in this thread (justifying W-W maneuvers) and that you were ok with this last map, as your above post at 12:44 today seemed to imply.....
Plot_redone_bearing_02.jpeg
Plot_redone_bearing_02.jpeg (66.83 KiB) Viewed 2881 times
Now apparently you are not yet at this point and you are still referencing your map and its distances (as per your post at 19:24).

I beg your pardon for "my" misunderstanding: you have not (yet :wink:) surrendered.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:14 pm

Hello everybody

@ all.

OK, I thought that you have all been able to follow me thru the explanations and in agreement with me but apparently only Herr Nillson and Alberto have arrived at my last map track evaluation of Norfolk and her GREEN showed bearing evaluation and the comparison between Pinchin and Tod ( in BLUE ) tracks, ... so lets recap from there.

After the received agreements about the main visual bearings among all warships and the battlefield frozen situation, I started the singular track evaluation with the Norfolk one showed on the map with the GREEN bearings you can see above.

Lets go one by one thru the GREEN showed bearings between the Norfolk track and the other ships in the battlefield.

A) Bearing at 05:41 of 276° between Norfolk and the enemy from her own war diary : a VISUAL bearing

B) Bearing at 05:50 of 220 °between Norfolk and BC1 reference Norfolk war diary : a VISUAL bearing

C) Bearing at 06:00 OF 230° between Norfolk and Hood exploding reference WW report : a VISUAL bearing.

D) Bearing at 06:12 of 272° between Norfolk and the enemy from Pinchin plot partially traced : a VISUAL bearing

E) Bearing at 06:20 of 335° between Norfolk and Suffolk reference WW report : a VISUAL bearing ( partially traced by Pinchin too )

F) Bearing at 06:36 of 275° between Norfolk and the enemy from Pinchin plot partially traced : a VISUAL bearing

ALL the above six VISUAL bearings are perfectly respected using Tod track ( in BLUE ) I have reproduced from the Norfolk strategical plot, while with Pinchin track one is not respected, I mean the one at 05:50 with BC1 ( ref. B ).

In any case the above 6 VISUAL bearings confirm the validity of the 05:41 R.D/F bearing called D/6, only partially traced by Pinchin in " The Plot " and well visible also on the Norfolk strategical map between Norfolk and Suffolk of 320° at 05:41.

Are you all in agreement about the above 6 visual + 1 R.D/F Norfolk bearings showed above in GREEN being correct and valid ?
Do you like more Pinchin or Tod track for Norfolk ?
It should be a very easy and elementary verification using my map and explanation now.

Just let me know.

@ Herr Nillson and Wadinga,

I think Sean got the point right about Tod incorrect positioning of that asterisk mark too close to the Norfolk track on the Norfolk strategical plot. Hood sinking position was well above the Norfolk real position at 06:29.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Post by Cag » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:24 am

Hi All

Hi Antonio, I thought the purpose of this was for us all to create a map to see how they compare? We had 7 bearings 335, 185, 276/280, 334, 207/208, 230 and 28 and we have additional bearings to consider.

As I have stated if you wish to continue onto Suffolk please do so, you do not need my approval. If you wish to include d/f or implied bearings etc etc on your map so be it. The purpose of this is for all to attempt to create maps, not any other.

Best wishes
Cag.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:49 am

Hello everybody,

@ CAG,

I see your point and as I read you are even still one step backward from the Norfolk GREEN bearings and the BLUE Tod track analysis on top of the Pinchin one from " The Plot" for Norfolk.

You are still evaluating the 7 initial official bearings used to agree among us all the battlefield dimensions and freeze it.

Those have been agreed among us all I thought already, and at this point I think unless you have something to argue about one or few of them we can consider closed the matter.

Just let me know, ... I have no problems to support and explain them to you again in case of your needs.

After we can move on the Norfolk track and her GREEN bearings to be evaluated and work on the Norfolk track between Pinchin and Tod.

Only after that I will move to the Suffolk one and her track analysis, and to Paton versus Pinchin tracks for the Suffolk.

http://www.ellsbury.com/hmssuffolk.htm

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

Cag
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Post by Cag » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:06 am

Hi All

Hi Antonio no problem as I say don't wait for me!

I posted my thoughts as regards the 7 bearings on page 1 and my concerns regarding the plot/strategic track etc.

I'm awaiting a response regarding the PG track map but please don't let anything hold back the flow of the thread.

What little time I have spare that I devote to this, I'm enjoying and I think that's the main idea, all my old navigation equipment is being used and at least I don't have to work out variance or deviation!

Best wishes
Cag

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:37 pm

Hello everybody,

@ CAG,
I'm awaiting a response regarding the PG track map but please don't let anything hold back the flow of the thread.
Maybe I have missed something, ... can you tell me again what you like to know about the PG track map ?

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

Cag
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Post by Cag » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:02 pm

Hi All

Hi Antonio,

I'm awaiting a response from the archive as regards a copy of the PG map, so it's ok there's nothing for you to worry about, you have not missed a question or anything.

Sorry I didn't make that clear,

Best wishes
Cag

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:50 am

Hello everybody,

@ CAG,

very good, ... I am sure that you will find those maps in colors and high definition very interesting indeed.

Those are the base of the German ship tracks, ... based on Prinz Eugen one, ... and with that very important 28°T bearing to Suffolk at 05:50, a very precise and timely accurate input, do provide one of the most important inputs we have, together with the other ones, to be used in order to correctly place the Suffolk track either from Pinchin or from Paton, the Suffolk navigating officer.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

Cag
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Post by Cag » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:08 pm

Hi All

Sorry for my absence, very busy again at the moment. I'm trying to do this in between work!

I have the Norfolk to Hood and PoW tracks matched using the 05.50 220° bearing, the 05.59 230° bearing and the 06.40 110° bearing. They are temporary at the moment of course, but the track of PoW seems to coincide very neatly with that of Norfolk especially the PoW turn at 06.50.

I've plotted the PoW 05.35 335° bearing and Hood 05.43 337° bearing to the German ships. Unfortunately I've had no reply off the Bundesarchiv but I'm more than happy to go with Antonio's Bismarck track.

I can plot the PoW salvo map bearings together with Norfolks bearings and Hood's etc to estimate Bismarck and Prinz Eugen and then Suffolk and see how they all match up.

I've also invested in some other archive material which may help. Again please don't let my limited amount of time I can devote to this stop the thread from continuing.

Best wishes
Cag.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:55 am

Hello everybody,

@ CAG,

very good, I see you are coming along easily now.

In fact this exercise needs at first to freeze the German and BC1 warship tracks as I did on my 2005 initial re-construction work, and only after ou can position the Norfolk and Suffolk tracks completing the work as I am doing recently.

At first I have lost a lot of time trying to work with distances and some bearings, but that does not work simply because the distances are a best estimate with a lot of tolerances, while the bearings are by far more accurate and with much less tolerances, and on this matter I have to thank again Wadinga and Dunmunro for their suggestion to move in this direction.

Anyway, at the end respecting all the available bearings you should come out with something very close to this one, where you can see the Norfolk bearings traced in GREEN for your convenience.

Plot_redone_bearing_02.jpeg.jpg
Plot_redone_bearing_02.jpeg.jpg (66.83 KiB) Viewed 2673 times
I have ready also the Suffolk one now, ... done in the same way and it is a perfect fit too, ... but there is no hurry, ... just take your time.

Now it is fairly easy to read the distances they really where at each time in that morning.

Of course with due tolerances, ... the bearing ones, ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:52 am

Hello everybody,

it is clear from this now from this accurate enough positioning of the Norfolk track ( thanking the official cross bearings ) that Norfolk distance from Hood at 06:00 was round 11 sea miles and Norfolk was at around 12 sea miles from the enemy, the Bismarck.

The Norfolk available Gunnery distances at open fire and at cease fire are confirming with the acceptable rangefinder tolerances the above scenario, so we can assume it now being the most accurate re-construction of the Norfolk track available, this unfortunately is due to the missing availability of the Norfolk own tactical plot that meanwhile just disappeared from the records, like the Suffolk ones.

A similar chart has been reproduced also for the Suffolk using her official bearings and she resulted being at around 9 sea miles from the enemy Bismarck at 05:42, immediately after the " Enemy in Sight ! " signal from Hood / Pow and just before making a circle back north that enlarged her distance at 15 sea miles at 05:52, when Hood opened fire on the enemy.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:00 pm

Hello everybody,

the above chart is available for everybody to be challenged if they want to demonstrate that Norfolk was always at " around " 15 sea miles from the enemy before, during and after the battle.

A similar chart for the Suffolk is available too.

Come on, ... do not be afraid, ... you only need mathematics and geometry base knowledge.

In absence of a different evidence, ... I assume you are in agreement with the above, ... that I am right and you are simply wrong.

Easy and irrefutable, ... as a scientific law can be ...

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:25 pm

Hello everybody,

as I have stated on another thread, I confirm that Capt Ellis, like many others, has been an intentional liar about what happened, by intentionally omitting some facts ( his real distance at certain point of 18.000 yards from the enemy ), …. and substituting them with other facts ( the mirage ) in order to justify what he did after 05:42, … the " U turn and circle " away from the enemy after having received the " Enemy in sight ! " from Holland squadron ( BC 1 ).

I do not care how many reports and when he wrote them, … he lied intentionally as explained above, … and only when he wrote his own autobiography he wrote the real facts ( I hope all of them ).

As a confirmation, … it is enough to plot the Suffolk track respecting her own bearings at various stages to realize it and to verify what from Prinz Eugen ( Busch radar and bearing soon after 05:30 and the bridge bearing at 05:50 ) they have measured correctly, … in line with Capt Ellis autobiography declarations and … omitted on his original report that just like Adm Tovey dispatches is just written in an intentional misleading way.

Intentional liars, … omitting key data and reasons for their actions, … and writing misleading statements instead with false justifications.


Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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