The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait
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- Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait
Hello everybody,
one can wonder all he can, ... and pretend all the tolerances he would like to have.
The above map I realized is the most precise we can make on today state of the knowledge, ... with the available bearings ( mostly visual ) we have on official documents and it is by far more accurate than " The Plot " which was done intentionally incorrect for a given goal we all know.
Tolerances are the one that a " 360° fixed plateau " can have with human eyes reading it, ... this one :
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205138527
and the same goes for the radio D/F bearings on 1941.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-freq ... on_finding
Assuming and accepting those tolerances as a given, the above map I made is the most accurate available.
As simple as that.
Bye Antonio
one can wonder all he can, ... and pretend all the tolerances he would like to have.
The above map I realized is the most precise we can make on today state of the knowledge, ... with the available bearings ( mostly visual ) we have on official documents and it is by far more accurate than " The Plot " which was done intentionally incorrect for a given goal we all know.
Tolerances are the one that a " 360° fixed plateau " can have with human eyes reading it, ... this one :
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205138527
and the same goes for the radio D/F bearings on 1941.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-freq ... on_finding
Assuming and accepting those tolerances as a given, the above map I made is the most accurate available.
As simple as that.
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
- Herr Nilsson
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Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait
For what it's worth for, the PoW track can't be used together with the Suffolk and Norfolk tracks.
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
- Antonio Bonomi
- Senior Member
- Posts: 3799
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
- Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy
Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait
Hello everybody,
@ Herr Nillson,
you wrote :
Why those 6 tracks made in the same scale cannot stay together on a map ?
Do you mind to clearly explain us why, ... when you state something like this statement. Thanks
Bye Antonio
@ Herr Nillson,
you wrote :
For what it's worth for, the PoW track can't be used together with the Suffolk and Norfolk tracks.
Why those 6 tracks made in the same scale cannot stay together on a map ?
Do you mind to clearly explain us why, ... when you state something like this statement. Thanks
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
- Herr Nilsson
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
- Location: Germany
Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait
PoW's map is a totally different kind of map. It just depicts course changes (probably when ordered) and the track shows a constant speed.
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
- Antonio Bonomi
- Senior Member
- Posts: 3799
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
- Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy
Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait
Hello everybody,
@ Herr Nillson,
regarding those differences once reduced in that scale, ... how many millimeters ( or better tenth or hundreds of millimeters ) that is going to impact ?
Basically it is surely less than the width of the line connecting the single points.
Are we talking tolerances ?
Obviously, somebody having done that in a much bigger scale, does have the possibility to realize that double check too, because of the paper dimensions.
Do you see any problem related to the structure and the validity of the map itself using visual and D/R bearings among various warship tracks other than those tolerances ?
Thanks Antonio
@ Herr Nillson,
regarding those differences once reduced in that scale, ... how many millimeters ( or better tenth or hundreds of millimeters ) that is going to impact ?
Basically it is surely less than the width of the line connecting the single points.
Are we talking tolerances ?
Obviously, somebody having done that in a much bigger scale, does have the possibility to realize that double check too, because of the paper dimensions.
Do you see any problem related to the structure and the validity of the map itself using visual and D/R bearings among various warship tracks other than those tolerances ?
Thanks Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait
Hello Antonio,
It seems you really don't know much about D/F, and what you have been told, you choose to forget.
Any D/F of Suffolk's transmissions is M/F not High Frequency. Medium Frequency which is intrinsically less reliable for bearing. Plus or minus 2 degrees is the best you can hope for. Looking at late war use of shipboard H/F D/F as described in the article is irrelevant. The figures I use come from the Admiralty Navigation manual and Bain-Bridges' book "Direction Finding" for M/F transmissions.
Switching to the tracks recorded by Norfolk and PoW, if they were at the same scale, I think they can be correlated. Norfolk's appears to be a tracing of that produced by the Admiralty Research Station Plotters (like that about HMS Belfast today) and used gyro input plus speed log to produce a pretty accurate, but not infallible or absolutely accurate (no GPS) track and current position projected onto a chart. PoW's track was damaged during the action but Kew has a tracing paper version which because it has none of the detail and jitter on Norfolk's track.
Long time readers will remember Antonio eventually (very reluctantly) coughed up log entries from PoW showing she took station directly astern of Norfolk at a distance of 1.5 miles. (How we laughed when Antonio pretended it was a dash meaning 1 to 5 miles instead of 1 point 5 miles). This is a direct short range correlation between the tracks.
Because using these tracks in this way would destroy his artificial thesis Antonio's current version of the map uses an invented version of Norfolk's track. What has been done to the respective scales I don't know.
PoW's navigator had no way of knowing where Norfolk, but more importantly Suffolk was. Prior to 03:36 he got some M/F D/F bearings from her transmissions but nothing later is shown. Bearings are not POSITIONS. They are somewhat divergent to one another either because Suffolk was at different bearings or because of plus or minus 2 degrees intrinsic error.
The tracks he drew for Suffolk were based on her grossly inaccurate position reports since he had no other information. Although she made numerous reports
These positions are not on the PoW action chart. She was experiencing gyro compass problems.
He drew a straight line from her reported position at 03:21 to a point based on her reported speed to a point which was her estimated position at 05:37. This is in no way an accurate position. He did the same for Norfolk. These completely erroneous positions were transferred to Plan $ submitted with the report and eventually were published after the War.
There is no indication PoW had any direct sighting of either Suffolk or Norfolk during the action, until PoW manouevred in a circle to take station astern of her new flagship Norfolk.
Since Norfolk only sighted Suffolk's gun flashes at 06:20 that is the only bearing Pinchin had to position her relative to Norfolk, and he had no distance whatsoever.
Andrew Gordon's book Rules of the Game has an appendix on the intrinsic unreliability of action plots from Jutland, and the near impossibility of improving them. The work recently done using GPS positions on the Jutland wrecks offers some promise. They sank in shallow water. I recently saw a Titanic documentary showing how far the hydrodynamic bow section "flew" on its long journey to the bottom. Hood's bow and conning tower may have done the same. Water is 800 times denser than air.
Creating an allegation defaming the reputations of naval officers based on:
in light of the inaccuracies and ambiguities highlighted by Northcape, and given the distortions produced by your own "intuitions" is insupportable. Bill Jurens, a recognised authority in the field has told you so, but you continue to blather on.
All the best
wadinga
It seems you really don't know much about D/F, and what you have been told, you choose to forget.
Any D/F of Suffolk's transmissions is M/F not High Frequency. Medium Frequency which is intrinsically less reliable for bearing. Plus or minus 2 degrees is the best you can hope for. Looking at late war use of shipboard H/F D/F as described in the article is irrelevant. The figures I use come from the Admiralty Navigation manual and Bain-Bridges' book "Direction Finding" for M/F transmissions.
Switching to the tracks recorded by Norfolk and PoW, if they were at the same scale, I think they can be correlated. Norfolk's appears to be a tracing of that produced by the Admiralty Research Station Plotters (like that about HMS Belfast today) and used gyro input plus speed log to produce a pretty accurate, but not infallible or absolutely accurate (no GPS) track and current position projected onto a chart. PoW's track was damaged during the action but Kew has a tracing paper version which because it has none of the detail and jitter on Norfolk's track.
Long time readers will remember Antonio eventually (very reluctantly) coughed up log entries from PoW showing she took station directly astern of Norfolk at a distance of 1.5 miles. (How we laughed when Antonio pretended it was a dash meaning 1 to 5 miles instead of 1 point 5 miles). This is a direct short range correlation between the tracks.
Because using these tracks in this way would destroy his artificial thesis Antonio's current version of the map uses an invented version of Norfolk's track. What has been done to the respective scales I don't know.
PoW's navigator had no way of knowing where Norfolk, but more importantly Suffolk was. Prior to 03:36 he got some M/F D/F bearings from her transmissions but nothing later is shown. Bearings are not POSITIONS. They are somewhat divergent to one another either because Suffolk was at different bearings or because of plus or minus 2 degrees intrinsic error.
The tracks he drew for Suffolk were based on her grossly inaccurate position reports since he had no other information. Although she made numerous reports
Reports.- Made reports at 0028, 0101, 0131, 0231, 0247, 0256, 0319 and 0321 during the above phase.
These positions are not on the PoW action chart. She was experiencing gyro compass problems.
He drew a straight line from her reported position at 03:21 to a point based on her reported speed to a point which was her estimated position at 05:37. This is in no way an accurate position. He did the same for Norfolk. These completely erroneous positions were transferred to Plan $ submitted with the report and eventually were published after the War.
There is no indication PoW had any direct sighting of either Suffolk or Norfolk during the action, until PoW manouevred in a circle to take station astern of her new flagship Norfolk.
Since Norfolk only sighted Suffolk's gun flashes at 06:20 that is the only bearing Pinchin had to position her relative to Norfolk, and he had no distance whatsoever.
Andrew Gordon's book Rules of the Game has an appendix on the intrinsic unreliability of action plots from Jutland, and the near impossibility of improving them. The work recently done using GPS positions on the Jutland wrecks offers some promise. They sank in shallow water. I recently saw a Titanic documentary showing how far the hydrodynamic bow section "flew" on its long journey to the bottom. Hood's bow and conning tower may have done the same. Water is 800 times denser than air.
Creating an allegation defaming the reputations of naval officers based on:
The above map I realized is the most precise we can make on today state of the knowledge
in light of the inaccuracies and ambiguities highlighted by Northcape, and given the distortions produced by your own "intuitions" is insupportable. Bill Jurens, a recognised authority in the field has told you so, but you continue to blather on.
All the best
wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
- Antonio Bonomi
- Senior Member
- Posts: 3799
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
- Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy
Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait
Hello everybody,
do not waste your time on the useless effort to try to convince me and the readers of the non validity of the work I did on that map.
It is valid, ... just like the Hood Second board assumed valid " The Plot " showed by Wake-Walker, ... just like Bill Jurens map about the HMS Glorious was valid for example, ... and just like thousands other maps of similar value and content made on many naval actions all time attached to official submitted reports.
Here the only blatant denier is you and few other ignorant and incompetent deniers, unable or better unwilling to accept the truth as it shows once the available data translate into a map.
Bye Antonio
do not waste your time on the useless effort to try to convince me and the readers of the non validity of the work I did on that map.
It is valid, ... just like the Hood Second board assumed valid " The Plot " showed by Wake-Walker, ... just like Bill Jurens map about the HMS Glorious was valid for example, ... and just like thousands other maps of similar value and content made on many naval actions all time attached to official submitted reports.
Here the only blatant denier is you and few other ignorant and incompetent deniers, unable or better unwilling to accept the truth as it shows once the available data translate into a map.
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
- Herr Nilsson
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1585
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
- Location: Germany
Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait
I see a lot of problems. Didn't you ever asked yourself why there is another action chart which differs from the track?Antonio Bonomi wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:44 pm Hello everybody,
@ Herr Nillson,
regarding those differences once reduced in that scale, ... how many millimeters ( or better tenth or hundreds of millimeters ) that is going to impact ?
Basically it is surely less than the width of the line connecting the single points.
Are we talking tolerances ?
Obviously, somebody having done that in a much bigger scale, does have the possibility to realize that double check too, because of the paper dimensions.
Do you see any problem related to the structure and the validity of the map itself using visual and D/R bearings among various warship tracks other than those tolerances ?
Thanks Antonio
Regards
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Marc
"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait
Again, this reply shows the very limited understanding and knowledge of the topic.Antonio Bonomi wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:46 pm
Here the only blatant denier is you and few other ignorant and incompetent deniers, unable or better unwilling to accept the truth as it shows once the available data translate into a map.
Bye Antonio
The data are sparse and full of uncertainties (much more than just reading tolerances, which is the smallest of all errors to be considered here, as explained many times).
If you have sparse data with large error bars, there is no way to create a map which depicts reality ("the truth"). The map is only one approximation, and since the data are sparse and very uncertain, any interpretation must take the translated errors (translated from data errors to positioning errors) into account. If you do this in this case, you will see that your lines will blow up to many miles wide corridors.
- Antonio Bonomi
- Senior Member
- Posts: 3799
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
- Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy
Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait
verybody,
@ Herr Nillson,
please explain me what do you mean by showing this chart :
Thanks.
Bye Antonio
@ Herr Nillson,
please explain me what do you mean by showing this chart :
Thanks.
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait
Hello All,
These are the original PoW Action plots from the vessel held at Kew:
The first shows the abortive D/F lines and the origin of the guessed Dead reckoning positions for Norfolk and Suffolk transferred erroneously to other charts. I believe Marc is right, these were redrawn with ruler and French curves after the original plot was destroyed by blood, water and blast damage.
The second shows the turn away and circle round to take station astern of Norfolk. Note neither Norfolk or Suffolk's tracks are represented and the scale distortion in the tidied up version for submitted report. In the submitted report map Norfolk's course is shown as a unrealistic straight line when we know she actually undertook radical turns after 05:41.
That is because PoW's navigator had no real idea where Norfolk was during the action, because she was too far away to be of help or interest. It is ludicrous to use guesswork mapping motivated by pre-existing "intuitions" and the desire for a saleable sensationalist story, to create a defamation against Leach and Wake-Walker.
Andrew Gordon's comments on the innate unreliability of action plans are even more more true when several navigators and their plots perished with their ships and there were very few others present.
All the best
wadinga
These are the original PoW Action plots from the vessel held at Kew:
The first shows the abortive D/F lines and the origin of the guessed Dead reckoning positions for Norfolk and Suffolk transferred erroneously to other charts. I believe Marc is right, these were redrawn with ruler and French curves after the original plot was destroyed by blood, water and blast damage.
The second shows the turn away and circle round to take station astern of Norfolk. Note neither Norfolk or Suffolk's tracks are represented and the scale distortion in the tidied up version for submitted report. In the submitted report map Norfolk's course is shown as a unrealistic straight line when we know she actually undertook radical turns after 05:41.
That is because PoW's navigator had no real idea where Norfolk was during the action, because she was too far away to be of help or interest. It is ludicrous to use guesswork mapping motivated by pre-existing "intuitions" and the desire for a saleable sensationalist story, to create a defamation against Leach and Wake-Walker.
Andrew Gordon's comments on the innate unreliability of action plans are even more more true when several navigators and their plots perished with their ships and there were very few others present.
All the best
wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
- Antonio Bonomi
- Senior Member
- Posts: 3799
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
- Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy
Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait
Hello everybody,
now we can see the radio D/F bearings taken between the Prince of Wales and the Suffolk, ... and one to the Norfolk too.
The triangle and the square are radio D/F bearings too, taken at given time from HMS Prince of Wales.
Those are data, ... real official data, ...
We are not talking the approach, ... there is a dedicated thread for it, ... we are confirming the same available bearings ( 7 of them ) during the battle, ... the one relative to the Norfolk here on this thread.
Do not mud the water as you usually try, ... you have no way out, ... because they are perfectly traced on my map.
This map is correct and the bearings are perfect.
Bye. Antonio
now we can see the radio D/F bearings taken between the Prince of Wales and the Suffolk, ... and one to the Norfolk too.
The triangle and the square are radio D/F bearings too, taken at given time from HMS Prince of Wales.
Those are data, ... real official data, ...
We are not talking the approach, ... there is a dedicated thread for it, ... we are confirming the same available bearings ( 7 of them ) during the battle, ... the one relative to the Norfolk here on this thread.
Do not mud the water as you usually try, ... you have no way out, ... because they are perfectly traced on my map.
This map is correct and the bearings are perfect.
Bye. Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait
The bearings are not perfect because they were not perfectly measured and recorded in the first place.Antonio Bonomi wrote: ↑Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:46 pm
Plot_redone_bearing_02.jpeg
This map is correct and the bearings are perfect.
Bye. Antonio
Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait
The effect of mirage at sea:
This video is an absolute must see to help understand what was visible from Suffolk and Norfolk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLM1sOp92R0
This video is an absolute must see to help understand what was visible from Suffolk and Norfolk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLM1sOp92R0
- Antonio Bonomi
- Senior Member
- Posts: 3799
- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
- Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy
Re: The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait
Hello everybody,
come on that mirage at sea was just an invention to justify on the Official report why Suffolk turned back.
Read Capt Ellis autobiography and you will realize that he lied, ... he lied intentionally on both the distance he was from the enemy and on the reason why he turned back making a circle and enlarging his distance from the enemy.
Now, ... all the poor ignorant and incompetent " RN Holligan/deniers " will write that is is my theory and my conspiracy, ... like if it was me to write Capt Ellis autobiography and not himself, ... all the available bearings both sides, ... and all the official documents recently surfaced about this shameful story .
Ridiculous, ... just ridiculous and pathetic ...
Bye Antonio
come on that mirage at sea was just an invention to justify on the Official report why Suffolk turned back.
Read Capt Ellis autobiography and you will realize that he lied, ... he lied intentionally on both the distance he was from the enemy and on the reason why he turned back making a circle and enlarging his distance from the enemy.
Now, ... all the poor ignorant and incompetent " RN Holligan/deniers " will write that is is my theory and my conspiracy, ... like if it was me to write Capt Ellis autobiography and not himself, ... all the available bearings both sides, ... and all the official documents recently surfaced about this shameful story .
Ridiculous, ... just ridiculous and pathetic ...
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )