Antonio Bonomi wrote:
now you are taking it personally vs me and accusing me to personally had intentions to denigrate those Officers just because maybe I do not like them ?
If this is your idea you are absolutely wrong and thinking in the wrong direction as I already told you.
I arrived to those analysis following the tracks of their ships and you know it very well.
After you can ask yourself why they incorrectly declared those data, ... as I did for historical reasons to support my explanations,...
Alberto Virtuani wrote:@Paul Mercer:
all your considerations are absolutely correct.
However, in the morning action, Bismarck was facing 2 battleships and she would have never turned her main guns against the cruisers. Even after Hood explosion, PoW would have remained as Bismarck main target, until she retreated. At the same time, the 2 cruisers could have turned and disappeared under smoke, having Bismarck to find the range from scratch against them (we know with hindsight that Bismarck would have never followed them as she did not follow PoW).
Prinz Eugen was in a much worse situation, because she was as vulnerable to British heavy shells as NF and SF were to Bismarck ones, she was the leading ship and she was even actually targeted by one of the British battleships (Hood). However she did not leave the line, fired at the enemy and hit Hood and PoW, causing both severe damages (albeit not vital).
NF and SF HE 8" could as well have caused damage to Bismarck (on May 27, it looks like a 8" shell destroyed Bismarck main fire control in the early stage of the battle) if taken in action. I think the British cruiser "problem" at Denmark Strait was the uneasy comparison with Prinz Eugen....
Re. re-engagement, Wake-Walker had the time during May 24 to maneuver his ships in order to engage Bismarck with PoW and Prinz Eugen with both cruisers (coordination would have been possible not having to keep radio silence anymore). Once (and if) disposed of the PG, he could have supported PoW against Bismarck. Again with hindsight it was the right decision not to re-engage, but at the time, I think an attempt should have been done a ssoon as possible, from westward, also to push Bismarck toward Tovey.
Alberto Virtuani wrote:@Dunmunro:
again, how could Bismarck fire her main armament to the cruisers having to face battleships ?
In any case, had Lutjens turned mad (such a Lutjens decision would have helped Holland a lot....), they could have retreated under smoke , risking..... splinters, most probably (as Sheffield on 26 and Norfolk on 23) or nothing at all as Suffolk on 24 evening. I guess this is an acceptable risk in wartime.
The engagement of the cruisers, well possible as demonstrated by Antonio reconstruction, without the timid maneuvers of both of them at 05:41, was implying very limited risks..... The problem is that the cruisers just intended to take no risk, having only in mind their shadowing and flank marking role, correct if blindly following the fighting instructions, absolutely wrong in such a short and decisive battle.
Alberto Virtuani wrote:Hi Duncan,
again, I'm not aware of any ship hit at first or second salvo when maneuvering and covered by smoke ....
Had Bismarck fired against the cruisers (again, a great opportunity for Holland indeed !), they had time to maneuver and make smoke. Of course there was a risk, but I do think that in such a decisive battle a limited risk has to be taken.
You showed me examples (and I added a couple more) when Bismarck fire, albeit accurate, was unable to severely damage the cruisers she was targeting. Bismarck was unable to hit PoW (of which she had already the range) anymore after PoW maneuvered under smoke in 7 minutes fire (4 being on steady course herself) at distances much shorter.
The risk taken by Prinz Eugen was immensely more high, but she escaped it and contributed to the battle.
Dunmunro wrote: "Both Bismarck and PoW were turning away at ~0601/24."
Alberto Virtuani wrote:Dunmunro wrote: "Both Bismarck and PoW were turning away at ~0601/24."
no, Bismarck turned 50° at 06:03 and PG at 06:04. Both were unable to hit PoW under smoke after 6:02 (3 salvos from Bismarck and 5 from PG, with the range already acquired and while still on steady course).
It's simply not probable that Bismarck could turn 180° at high speed firing with any precision in the meantime. In the meantime, however, the cruisers could have maneuvered more quickly than her (due to their agility compared to a 50,000 tons battleship), made effective smoke and... been safe.
Please give me a single example of a ship hit at first or second salvo while maneuvering to run away under smoke.
Alberto Virtuani wrote:Hi Duncan,
it was your scenario, not mine. If not turning, Bismarck fire would take less salvos to find the range, but the cruisers could run away under smoke enlarging range more quickly. In any case, Bismarck opening fire on the cruisers would have been a great opportunity for Holland.
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