The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:53 am

Wadinga wrote: "Can you point out where the words Coast(s) /shores of France appears?"
Hi Sean,
the words "shores of France" don't come out in Churchill book, that does not specify the exact text anyway, and first appear in 1950 Tovey's still good (I hope for the RN, as he left his positions in 1946, we expect in full possession of his mental capabilities, as Roskill confirmed to Kennedy) memory.....
The same/similar words were repeated by Tovey in all his mails from 1950 till 1962 (I have posted them all,please see viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8246#p77068)

However, Churchill says clearly that the message was duly sent on May 26 (or latest on May 27 early night hours) by Pound....anyway before the dawn on May 27.

You have 2 choices:
  • 1) Churchill was a "poor old PM" inventing things in 1950. Tovey was in some way "influenced" by WSC recollections and attributed the message to May 26 instead of 1137/27.
    2) the message (or a similar one suggesting the chase should end up only within French home waters... :think: ), from May 26 (or May 27 early night), that both WSC and Tovey remember correctly, has been "espounged" from the records (as Pound assured to Tovey during the phone call and Tovey wrote to Roskill in 1954)
Your choice, I have mine and it is clearly No.2


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Cag » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:24 pm

Hi All,

May I ask how it would be possible to expunge a signal that had been transmitted via the airwaves so that every ship in the fleet, shore station, and even your enemy has picked up?

Wouldnt the very nature of the repossessions of all those written signals on every ship and shore station around the globe have caused more of a furore than the signal itself? Especially when the Admiralty signal would have to be sent to request that ships expunge that signal? A talking point for crews? Why expunge the coast of France signal but not the one to WW or the 11.37B one? Rather odd don't you think and slightly illogical?

Hi Dunmunro, the list of signals you have very kindly posted are from the NARA archives, am I right in thinking the British would have given them those records? Or are they intercepts deciphered?

Thanks
Best wishes
Cag.

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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:48 pm

Cag wrote: "May I ask how it would be possible to expunge a signal that had been transmitted via the airwaves "
Hi Mr. Cag,
I have no clue at all. The message would have been ciphered, I don't know how many ships/shore station would have received and de-ciphered it.
Also I don't know how many message logs were going to be kept for a long time.... I have not seen a lot of them circulating here (I remember the Norfolk and Suffolk message log No.K.856/189 form June 5th, an extract), but they are not complete at all, e.g. in the previous one also the 1137/27 towing message is missing.....)


You should have asked this question to Pound who "was having it espounged (sic) from the records" (as per Tovey words in 1954), so implicitly saying it was possible and actually in progress at the same time (probably) of the famous phone call.

You should have asked it to Tovey, who apparently accepted Pound words, showing he was believing that Pound's promise was realistic.

You should have asked it to Roskill who have not written any pencil annotation on this letter, apparently convinced that it was well possible, albeit very difficult.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by dunmunro » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:25 pm

Cag wrote:Hi All,

May I ask how it would be possible to expunge a signal that had been transmitted via the airwaves so that every ship in the fleet, shore station, and even your enemy has picked up?

Wouldnt the very nature of the repossessions of all those written signals on every ship and shore station around the globe have caused more of a furore than the signal itself? Especially when the Admiralty signal would have to be sent to request that ships expunge that signal? A talking point for crews? Why expunge the coast of France signal but not the one to WW or the 11.37B one? Rather odd don't you think and slightly illogical?

Hi Dunmunro, the list of signals you have very kindly posted are from the NARA archives, am I right in thinking the British would have given them those records? Or are they intercepts deciphered?

Thanks
Best wishes
Cag.
I am fairly certain that these are Admiralty records supplied during the war to the USA. However, I am also certain that the USN would have also been intercepting and recording RN and KM radio traffic and the RN messages would have been decoded once RN codes were made available after the USN began escorting east bound convoys.

You are correct that B-Dienst would have picked up, and eventually decoded, any signal to Tovey as well.

In any event why would Pound send a similar message on 27 May/1137b and not expunge (which I agree would not be possible) that as well, or indeed any of the other R.O.O.F. messages

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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by dunmunro » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:36 pm

Churchill made mistakes when writing his histories but he was still bound by the Official Secrets Act. He would not have made reference to a signal that had been "expunged" at his own request or acquiescence. Churchill was referring to the 1137B message and he simply got the timing wrong.

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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:10 pm

Hello everybody,

I have to admit this is very intriguing now ... :think:

Lets capitalize on what we have learned lately and do not underestimate was has been already written by the British Historians

Lets start with Sir Ludovic Kennedy on Pursuit :
Kennedy_Epilogue_page_223.jpg
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Kennedy_epilogue_page_224_note1.jpg
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As we can read his version of this story is as follow : Message prepared by Churchill on the 26th, but sent on the 27th at 11:37
with the text we all know.

No mention of Pound telling Tovey that the message was going to be " expunged " from the records

Bye Antonio :D
Last edited by Antonio Bonomi on Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Cag » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:11 pm

Hi All

Hi Dunmunro thank you, I would have thought it would have been supplied by the Admiralty.

Pitcairn Jones does state that the 11.37B is the signal Tovey referenced, the shores of France reference in the view of Pitcairn Jones was specific to the air threat.

The difficulty of expunging such a widespread received signal would be hard to do, why expunge this and not the 11.37B?

The 11.37B must be the shores of France one too?

Best wishes
Cag.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:14 pm

Hello everybody,

@ CAG,

thansk for the information.

Can you please post here the Pitcairn-Jones text version. Thanks

Does anybody have similar evidence from Russell Grenfell ?

Bye Antonio :-)
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:53 pm

Dunmunro wrote: "You are correct that B-Dienst would have picked up, and eventually decoded, any signal to Tovey as well."
Hi Duncan,
first of all, I think Pound and Tovey were not aware of this on May, 1941. According to Tovey, they were both convinced that the "espounging" (I write it as Tovey) was possible.

Then, I must admit I possibly don't have the full list of B-Dienst intercepted and deciphered messages, but are we sure all messages were deciphered ? Or only the most "common" ones were (e.g. position, course, speed, type of ship, etc) but not the "uncommon" words ?
E.g. do we have evidence that both these two messages were duly intercepted by B-Dienst ? Can someone post them ? They are both not included in this site: http://www.kbismarck.com/archives/telegram4.html that seems to confirm that only the most "common" signals were deciphered.
Fuel_Tovey_1821_26.jpg
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Fuel_Towing_1137_27.jpg
Fuel_Towing_1137_27.jpg (28.68 KiB) Viewed 911 times
Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:19 pm

Hello everybody,

here we have Stephen Roskill version of this story :
Roskill_1977_about_KGV_radio_signals.jpg
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It seems that Stephen Roskill just accepted Sir L. Kennedy interpretation of the facts and his version ... :think:

Here the area we are referring to and the around 500/600 sea miles mentioned above by Stephen Roskill separating Bismarck sinking position from Brest and the " shore of France " in the Bay of Biscay.
Plan3_detail.jpg
Plan3_detail.jpg (101.21 KiB) Viewed 909 times
Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:45 pm

Hello everybody,

here we have Graham Rhys-Jones :
Graham_Rhys_Jones_page_225.jpg
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Graham_Rhys_Jones_page_226_01.jpg
Graham_Rhys_Jones_page_226_01.jpg (86.4 KiB) Viewed 904 times
Graham_Rhys_jones_page_226_02.jpg
Graham_Rhys_jones_page_226_02.jpg (74.14 KiB) Viewed 904 times
continue ...
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:49 pm

Hello everybody,

... continuing Graham Rhys-Jones version :
Graham_Rhys_jones_page_226_03.jpg
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Notes_Graham_Rhys_Jones.jpg
Notes_Graham_Rhys_Jones.jpg (47.1 KiB) Viewed 904 times
Also Graham Rhys-Jones seems to follow Sir Kennedy interpretation, ... just like Roskill ... :think: :think: :think:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Herr Nilsson » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:27 am

If there was an order on May 26th from Pound to Tovey to chase Bismarck up to the shores of France, why did Pound send this signal to Tovey after midnight:
Pound.jpg
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Regards

Marc

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:59 am

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

a very interesting message indeed, confirming the very " close monitoring " and back seat driving from the Admiralty war room.

Adm Tovey had already confirmed at 00:09/27 to Sommerville that he was going to engage the enemy at dawn in the morning.

Course 30° is obviously not in line with that intention and almost immediately, ... as you are showing us ... at 00:50 we have this message from Pound to Tovey basically asking for a confirmation of his intentions and ... underlining what he wanted him to do.

This story becomes more intriguing ... :think: ... and I think we are moving close to solve this puzzle.

@ all,

what was the role of the A.C.N.S.H. ( Assistant Chief of Naval Staff - Home ) ?

Who was in that moment ? Was it Rear Adm Arthur John Power ?

Thanks for your help ... :wink: ... :think:

Bya Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:56 pm

Hello everybody,

more information for everybody to understand.

Assistant Chief of the Naval Staff Home :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assistant ... aval_Staff

Sir Arthur John Power GCB, GBE, CVO (12 April 1889 – 28 January 1960) :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Power

Bye. Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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