The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Dunmunro wrote: "Tovey was 65 in 1950."
Hi Duncan,
and he was 61 when he left active service in the Royal Navy..... Elderly ? No, just inconvenient for you, due to his letters, written between 1950 and 1962...... :lol:
Tovey died in 1971 aged 85, by then he was a bit elderly....... :negative:

Roskill considered him reliable, lucid and in "high spirits" between 1950 and 1960, when he came several times to his place to discuss Naval History, bringing documents. I think you should really give up with this low insinuation about Tovey memory, starting instead to look for evidences (like a single original message log to demonstrate if and when the "shore of France" signal was sent. :stop:


For the time being, immediately after the war, both Churchill and Tovey wrote clearly that such a message was sent during the evening/night of May 26, while Tovey added that Pound "was having it espunged from the records" already during the famous phone call back from the Bismarck operation.....


Bye, Alberto
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wadinga
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by wadinga »

Hello All,

Firstly I would just like to point out to everybody here present that I am presently 66 years old and consider myself to be at the very height of my powers. :D

Now back to the business of this non-existent "Shores of France " signal.

From the signal log Pound sent "Your 23:47 gave your course as 030T. Assume you are still chasing." 00:50/27. Is the direct order "Continue to the Shores of France" supposed to happened on the 26th? :?

Pound is supposed to have given a direct order, realises Tovey is ignoring it, crucially just after midnight, when he has said he will break off the chase, and says "assume". Assume you are still following my direct order even though it looks like you are sailing back to the UK? Or maybe the Direct Order never actually happened at all. Pound receives no response from Tovey, the man who is apparently disregarding this Direct Order. The Admiralty sends him a weather forecast, and later a message claiming there are two German ships in the area, later retracted.

Did the imaginary "expunging" of the "Shores of France" signal also include modifying other signals sent around the same time, to make its disappearance less obvious? :shock:

Tovey does not transmit for hours, but is told just after 09:09/27 by VCNS Phillips to expect heavy German air attack. Just a few minutes later, Pound who is supposed to be working closely with Phillips, sends an entirely separate message at 09:15/27 offering to add to the confusion of destroyers, cruisers, battleships and carriers milling around in murky weather by adding a submarine. One of ours, that is, as opposed to the masses of U-boats assumed to be racing to Lutjens' rescue.

With the Crete crisis happening simultaneously, also demanding his attention, Pound has clearly been in the dark with what is going on with the Bismarck hunt and his ineffectual interventions, have you thought of attacking with destroyers, why are you steering 030T and would you like a submarine, indicate he was totally out of touch. Tovey ignored all these annoyances and got on with the business of smashing Bismarck to bits. His frustration at his inability to do it with gunfire alone led to him jovially requesting his set of darts to see if they would do the trick.

Tovey reports Bismarck's sinking to the Admiralty at 11:01B and in a final irony, this crosses with the pretentious "We cannot envisage..............." sent from the 1st Sea Lord, timed at 11:37B/27, obviously completely in the dark about what is going on. Tovey is guilty of not keeping the Admiralty in the loop, and Somerville in a letter to his wife, complains even he was not being kept informed by Tovey, hence his signal to Tovey 10:27B/27 "Have you disposed of enemy?" to which he got the response "Cannot get her to sink with guns."

Although Direct Order/Shores of France was of first priority in Tovey's letters to him, Roskill apparently never found any sign it had ever existed, and presumably in talking to those personnel who might have intercepted it, none of them confirmed it.

Clearly whatever Churchill thought and Tovey banged on about for 11 years, there never was a direct order to continue the chase to the Shores of France.




All the best

wadinga
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: "Did the imaginary "expunging" of the "Shores of France" signal also include modifying other signals sent around the same time....."
Hi Sean,
I don't know, NOT HAVING ANY ORIGINAL SIGNAL LOG but only documents either partial or redacted "a posteriori"..... :negative:
To solve the question would be possible only finding the complete and original message log of a ship involved (preferably the KGV, being the message addressed to Tovey only) or of a shore station.

you wrote: "there never was a direct order to continue the chase to the Shores of France"
Your respectable personal opinion, both Churchill and Tovey say the contrary. Roskill was doubtful about such a signal (I have a letter in which he says he does not believe it was actually sent on May 26 and that only the 1137/27 exists), but he had not the "Bay of Biscay" signal text in his hands....


Bye, Alberto
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wadinga
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

He got four, or was it five, (remind me) letters highlighting this message of which he never found any mention of its existence, other than Tovey's recollection, and yet he never queried it with the former C-in-C? Sounds to me like he was just humouring the old boy. :D

Do you think those other messages were changed to avoid reminding Tovey he had received a direct order as well? :lol:

Roskill couldn't find it. But then even he couldn't find what never existed.

All the best

wadinga
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: "....and yet he never queried it with the former C-in-C...."
Hi Sean,
I don't know when Roskill started to seriously query about the "shore of France" message. The letter in which he expresses doubts about it is from 1972 (after Tovey's death) and I don't know when he penciled the comments writing over Tovey's original letters.

I'm sure that, having the "Bay of Biscay" signal, he would have queried Tovey...... :think:


Again Sean, I don't know how many messages were redacted as I have NO ORIGINAL SIGNAL LOG from any ship...... :negative:


Bye, Alberto
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

Nobody has the
but he had not the "Bay of Biscay" signal text in his hands....
signal text in their hands. Nobody has that signal. Even Tovey is not consistent with the wording in his letters. Nobody else has ever referred to that signal, because it doesn't exist.

As for
both Churchill and Tovey say the contrary


Churchill says nothing about the "Shores of France".

You say
I don't know when Roskill started to seriously query about the "shore of France" message.
Well in Churchill and the Admirals he calls the 11:37B which really did exist
he came up with one of the most extraordinary signals of the war
For Roskill to call it that it must have been extraordinary.

How much more extraordinary he would have found a message instructing Tovey to ROOF on the "Shores of France" in pursuit of an uncatchable enemy, sent the previous day, before the Ark had even slowed the enemy down. I imagine he found it just more incredible than even just extremely extraordinary, when Tovey first told him about it. Which is why he never published or referred to it.

All the best

wadinga
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: "Nobody has that signal."
Hi Sean,
I'm afraid you are wrong again.... but this time I can't help you, because it's Antonio who found the "Bay of Biscay" weather forecast signal (and published it on this forum).
I have seen it and I can confirm that the text is present in a published book. This signal text was not available to Roskill.

A "shores of France" towing signal is not yet found....but no original message log is available.... :think:


you wrote: "How much more extraordinary he would have found a message instructing Tovey to ROOF on the "Shores of France" ..."
well, I think a "shore of France" message sent in the evening of May 26, in answer to Tovey 1821/26 declared intention to give up the pursuit at midnight, would have been much less extraordinary (and even understandable, albeit irritating) than a message sent after Bismarck was clearly doomed, and actually even sunk).
Churchill was present in the War Room in the late evening of May 26. Do you really think he lightly accepted Tovey declaration of intents ? To give up the chase at midnight, despite Somerville was able to plan another Ark Royal air attack in the early morning of 27 ? :negative:

I think Churchill did "insist" to send a clear message to Tovey that he had to continue the pursuit during the night, to be ready to exploit the planned air attack in the morning of 27. Such a signal, let's say from 19:00 pm till 22:00 pm would not have been much surprising, and even if sent later, due to the fact that possibly the admiralty was not sure yet that Bismarck was unable to go to Brest.


Bye, Alberto
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Regards

Marc

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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: "Nobody has that signal."
I wrote: "Hi Sean, I'm afraid you are wrong again....
Q.E.D. :lol:


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However, all the above are NOT original message logs, but lists of messages redacted "a posteriori". :think:


Bye, Alberto
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,

you are to continue the pursuit right up to the shores of France even if you have to be towed home "
" ordering me to continue the chase up to the shores of France, even if the K.G.V. had to be towed back "
" you are to continue the pursuit right up the coast of France, even if it means your ship being towed back "
" if necessary she is to be pursued right up to the shores of France, even if the K.G.V. has to be towed home "

Once again thank-you for putting truth and conscience before the promotion of your Dark Crusade, and providing these direct quotes. :clap: :clap: :clap:

There were two letters in 1954, maybe that also said "Shores of France", (I'll bet it did :wink:) how about telling us?

Nobody has that signal. No-one remembers that signal on the 26th because it would not have been

and even understandable, albeit irritating

but a completely pointless instruction since Bismarck would never have been in range of KG V's guns but well within Luftwaffe protection by the following day. They bombed and missed Norfolk and Cossack just before ten the following morning. They had a go at the Ark just after her planes landed on at 11:15/27.

Don't you think Tovey believed these specific words were in the message he imagined he received? Which is why he used them over and over again. For 11 years.

We have established beyond doubt that the Bay of Biscay is a large area of sea extending to 15W, where Tovey had brought Bismarck to an effective standstill, whereas the coastline shoreline of France is................ a line.

All the best

wadinga
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

you highlighted :

Why so secretive?

On his Majesty's service : observations of the British home fleet from the diary, reports, and letters of Joseph H Wellings, assistant U.S. naval attaché, London, 1940-41

Page 223
Am I right if I notice and underline that on the Wellings radio message list you showed above contained on his book there are NOT two of the messages we are discussing about in this thread ?

I mean there is NOT the 00:50 message from Adm Pound to Adm Tovey asking him if he was still chasing ... this one :
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... and there is NOT the famous 11:37 message from Adm Pound to Tovey about the " towing " home, ... this one :
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Now somebody was writing here that all radio messages were received by everybody, ... and the list of Welling messages received on board HMS Rodney is very evidently NOT confirming this theory of course, ... as every average expert in radio communications will tell us of course.

That is NOT the official HMS Rodney radio log, ... it is an extract list from Wellings for his book, ... like the Admiralty one is a list and the CS1 one is a list, ... just to give you other 2 examples of radio message list's we have, ... that are NOT the original radio logs of the ships.

In order to realize if ever a radio message was received on board the HMS King George V that day, ... we would need to look at the ship official radio log, ... but all the radio log's were destroyed immediately after the war ,... we only have list's now, ... summary list's .... and not the original data.

Is it clear to everybody ? Any doubt about it ? Any consideration ?

Bye, Antonio :D
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: "Nobody has that signal"
Hi Sean,
this time you are finally right (at last, after having WRONGLY said that nobody had the "Bay of Biscay" signal).
However, as NOBODY HAS AN ORIGINAL MESSAGE LOG from any ship (and mostly from KGV), it is simply impossible to say if and when the "shores of France" message was sent, as Antonio has clearly explained above.
Churchill and Tovey both say such a message was sent on May 26 evening.

you wrote: "There were two letters in 1954.... "
FALSE ! If you were not too lazy to get the original documentation, being only willing to deny the facts posted by other people, you would have seen that Kennedy is wrong in his statement, once again...

you wrote: "the Bay of Biscay is a large area of sea extending to 15W,"
:lol: Including Great Britain and your own home...... :lol:
Stop this ridiculous "sophistry".... Everybody knows where is the Bay of Biscay and what such a message was meaning to Tovey, having been sent to the C.i.C.HF only, by A.C.N.S.H. and not by a Meteorological Officer at 02:13 during the night.... :negative:


Bye, Alberto
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by wadinga »

Hello Alberto,
If you were not too lazy to get the original documentation, being only willing to deny the facts posted by other people, you would have seen that Kennedy is wrong in his statement, once again...
Which of the two November dates is the one you have seen?

Just because you have only one November letter today, does not mean there weren't two in 1974. Kennedy was an experienced investigative journalist, you are..........................not. :cool:
(and mostly from KGV)
if you had a KG V log without a Shores of France message, you would just say it had been tampered with like every other piece of evidence which contradicts your and your co-authors' assertions.

"the Bay of Biscay is a large area of SEA extending to 15W
Neither the British Isles in general nor my home are covered by sea. The area offshore from the Brest peninsula and Cape Finisterre out to 15W is the Bay of Biscay as the legend says on the unredacted map from Roskill.

Besides this is the fuel signals thread, surely weather forecasts should be on a different thread?
If you were not too lazy to get the original documentation
Be careful of what you wish for.......... :cool:

Commodore Blackman in Edinburgh ignored his ROOF signal, announced he would abandon search at 20:00 (09:40B/26) and returned to harbour with just 5% remaining. Was he court-martialled? Or indeed Re-Roofed during the day? :D

Remaining "on the Scene" at 15W and ROOF is fairly stupid, but chasing an uncatchable foe to the "Shores of France" and then ROOF close enough to smell the baguettes is cataclysmically stupid, and, not surprisingly, Roskill never mentioned such a signal, because when he read Tovey's first letter he knew it was untrue.

All the best

wadinga
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Wadinga wrote: "Kennedy says there were two letters in November 1954 on 11th and 20th....." and ".....Just because you have only one November letter today, does not mean there weren't two in 1974 (sic). Kennedy was an experienced investigative journalist, you are..........................not."
:negative:
Hi Sean,
Kennedy (by now clearly a....novelist) was simply wrong. All Tovey's material that Kennedy used comes from Roskill. I had already checked (not being incautious like you) and I can confirm that there is only one letter to Roskill in November 1954 also because the words referred by your great investigative journalist from the two letters..... are simply the same as per the original single letter I have in my hands..... The date of the letter is..... 20/11/1954 :lol: Have you understood now how your experienced investigative journalist published "fake news" ? :lol: Quite a trivial error from Kennedy, unfortunately not the worse one he had done in his novel......

I really don't understand why you are so masochist to insist to make a fool of yourself not having the information.....



Same for the Bay of Biscay, being (according to you) a large extent of SEA, where the British Islands are "Biscayan" islands (being inside the Bay of Biscay "Inner Zone", please see "your" favourite map)...... :negative:
Are you really unable to see the difference between a geographical (or meteorogical) definition and the conventional names of patrol areas for an anti-submarine operation :?:
Bay_of_Biscay_Wadinga_reduced.jpg
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Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,


some food for thoughts ...

https://www.amazon.it/Great-Naval-Blund ... B01N1ETQLA

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Reagan evidently read both S. Roskill as well as L. Kennedy, ... and summarized the concept making it easier to realize it ... without any " problematic " timing correlation ... :think:

Just for the records, ... since I just purchased the book in the Kew Gardens library ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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