The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

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wadinga
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by wadinga » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:48 pm

Hello Herr Nilsson,

As usual a pithy, concise and significant intervention :D

Another pointless interference with the "Man on the Job" along with "Don't forget to use your destroyers for a night attack" whilst he is trying to get on in poor weather with a difficult co-ordination job with detached destroyers, Force H, Sheffield, CS 1 and the fear that Bismarck might repair her damage and leg it for home.

Pound had sent a number of pointless signals and the 1137B after it was all over and done with was the last straw.

I think Rhys-Jones' point is incorrect
Tovey's immediate reaction to this message was defensive
I think Tovey's reaction on the green phone was anything but defensive but that he was hopping mad and extracted an exceptional apology from Pound for its' sending.

It is, as several have pointed out, ridiculous to imagine a Coasts of France" message being expunged (impossible) whilst the 1137B signal remains. Occam's Razor clearly shows the Coasts of France to have been Tovey imagining and exagerrating, which he continued to do for 11 years.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:54 pm

Hello everybody,

now lets see how good as " history investigators " you are.

Do you notice something unusual here :
Weather_messages_RN_May_26_27_1941.jpg
Weather_messages_RN_May_26_27_1941.jpg (34.14 KiB) Viewed 388 times
... this " puzzle "solution is coming ... stay tuned ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Herr Nilsson » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:48 pm

@Antonio

It's an additional weather forecast from ACNSH, which makes sense when Tovey intends to engage at dawn.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:26 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

Yes, ... that seems obvious to me as well at first look, ... even if it is coming from that level Officer ... :shock: ... and not from the Duty Met. Officer that was issuing that info every 12 hours on regular base, ...

But the real question is why from him at that time on that night and mostly why related to that part of the Ocean ?

Do you mind to tell everybody now which part of the Ocean RearAdm Power was referring to on his message to Adm Tovey ... that was on that moment at around 600 sea miles from Brest.

Thanks ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by dunmunro » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:40 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

Yes, ... that seems obvious to me as well at first look, ... even if it is coming from that level Officer ... :shock: ... and not from the Duty Met. Officer that was issuing that info every 12 hours on regular base, ...

But the real question is why from him at that time on that night and mostly why related to that part of the Ocean ?

Do you mind to tell everybody now which part of the Ocean RearAdm Power was referring to on his message to Adm Tovey ... that was on that moment at around 600 sea miles from Brest.

Thanks ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
Antonio, why not just tell us what you are hinting at?

Even if KGV returned to the UK (or an Irish port) at 2400 26 May to refuel, there were still substantial RN forces on scene with which to engage Bismarck, including Rodney, Renown and Ark Royal. The weather to be expected was vital information for these forces as was the weather over the Luftwaffe bases on the French Coast, so that they might be able to anticipate Luftwaffe involvement.

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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:11 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

what I am directing everybody toward to is that we were all searching for a message which contained on it a clear reference to the France coast, ... the " shores of France ", ... the Bay of Biscay, ... toward Brest, ... something like that directed from the Admiralty to Adm Tovey.

Now I am sure that you know probably better than anybody here in that the Royal Navy Duty Meteorologic Officer was releasing the weather information to everybody of course ( General ) every 12 hours at 7 pm ( 19:00) and at 7 am ( 07:00 ).

We have 2 clear examples of it I have posted, contained into your document in pdf.

Into the same document at 02:13 am on the 27th of May we can see a message with no text, ... issued by the Assistant Chief of the Naval Staff Home, ... which is a very high level Officer in the Admiralty, ... sending a weather information directly and only to Adm Tovey, ... not to everybody.

Which type of information does contain that message ?

An information about the area were Adm Tovey was sailing having the Bismarck basically dead on the water ?

No of course, ... that one was already on his hands with 200 sea miles coverage radius sent at 7 pm by the Duty Met. Officer.

He sent over an information about the Bay of Biscay sea situation.

If I am not wrong the Bay of Biscay are the ... " shores of France " ... isnt it ?

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by dunmunro » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:34 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

what I am directing everybody toward to is that we were all searching for a message which contained on it a clear reference to the French coast, ... the " shore of French ", ... the Bay of Biscay, ... toward Brest, ... something like that directed from the Admiralty to Adm Tovey.

Now I am sure that you know probably better than anybody here in that the Royal Navy Duty Meteorologic Officer was releasing the weather information to everybody of course ( General ) every 12 hours at 7 pm ( 19:00) and at 7 am ( 07:00 ).

We have 2 clear examples of it I have posted, contained into your document in pdf.

Into the same document at 02:13 am on the 27th of May we can see a message with no text, ... issued by the Assistant Chief of the Naval Staff Home, ... which is a very high level Officer in the Admiralty, ... sending a weather information directly and only to Adm Tovey, ... not to everybody.

Which type of information does contain that message ?

An information about the area were Adm Tovey was sailing having the Bismarck basically dead on the water ?

No of course, ... that one was already on his hands with 200 sea miles coverage radius by the Duty Met. Officer.

He sent over an information about the Bay of Biscay sea situation.

If I am not wrong the Bay of Biscay are the ... " shore of French " ... isnt it ?

Bye Antonio :D
As has been stated previously here and on page 48 of Bismarckops2 Tovey signalled Somerville at 0009 27 May that he ( Tovey ) intended to engage Bismarck at dawn. The provision of an updated weather forecast was undoubtedly in anticipation of a dawn engagement on 27 May.

If Tovey had received a R.O.O.F. message and had decided to act upon that message he would have referenced it in a reply.

Antonio, you are flogging a dead horse here. It's time to admit that there was only the one R.O.O.F. message to Tovey, sent at 1137B 27 May.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:04 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

I do not agree with you, ... sorry, no dead horses here.

That is a clear reference to the Bay of Biscay that was at least 500 sea miles away from Adm Tovey on that moment.

Remember that despite the 00:09/27 by Tovey you are referring to, ... that should have made clear to everybody his future intentions, ... at 00:50/27 in any case Pound was still asking confirmation about his intention to continue to chase the enemy.
Pound.jpeg
Pound.jpeg (23.57 KiB) Viewed 347 times
Do you know about any response from Tovey to the Pound 00:50/27 message above ? I do not.

I am having a lot of fun reading them thru, ... since there is a lot to be still realized and learned about what occurred that night between the Admiralty War Room and Adm Tovey on board the KGV, ... including Sommerville too, ... :wink:

It is enough to put yourself either into Tovey shoes, ... or the Admiralty ones, ... and you will immediately realize what was going on that night, ... and the morning after ... until that 11:37 message to Tovey directly from Pound once again.

One thing is for sure, ... a message mentioning in clear words the Bay of Biscay ( 500 sea miles from his position ) was showed to Adm Tovey that night.

No one can state it is not true anymore, ... because I have that message in my hands now.

Bye. Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by dunmunro » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:29 pm

There was considerable time lag in preparing, coding, transmitting, receiving, and decoding messages and then passing them on. It is obvious now, and would have been obvious then, that the 0009b message and the 0050b message passed each other in transit, and so there was no need for a reply by Tovey.

Additionally it was also obvious that the 2347B and 0009B messages passed each other in transit.

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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:06 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Dunmunro,

I see what you mean and it does make sense of course, ... still Tovey was not providing any response back apparently, ... but only providing orders and directions, ... :think:

This surely was not calm down the War Room in London, ... :think:

Tomorrow I will post Corelli-Barnett and Brodhurst event description, they are both describing pretty well what was going on into the Admiralty War Room on that timeframe.

I confirm it was RearAdm A.J. Power that sent over that Bay of Biscay weather forecast, ... it was one of the key persons into the War Room managing the situation during the Bismarck chase, ... according to Robin Brodhurst list available on page 182 of his book.

Again, it is very interesting to realize what type of messages has been sent among all the participants of the chase at the different stage of the operation.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by wadinga » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:38 am

Hello All,
This surely was not calm down the War Room in London,
I don't imagine Tovey was in the least bit bothered about providing a running commentary so as to calm anybody. Apart from unhelpful messages like "have you thought of a destroyer attack" and "are you still chasing" Pound was providing nothing of value. Timed 09:15B/27 he even offers a submarine, Tigris which will have to be guided to the attack. With a maelstrom of battleships, cruisers, a carrier and a bunch of destroyers milling around in boisterous weather, and expecting U boats and the Luftwaffe any minute, the last thing Tovey needs is a British submarine creating confusion.

I expect the response:
Do you know about any response from Tovey to the Pound 00:50/27 message above ? I do not.
was probably "Why doesn't he leave me alone to get on with this bloody job! I'll steer whatever damn course suits me." :lol:

Duncan, Antonio has been flogging dead horses for years, he won't stop now. One nag, called Conspiracy Theory, is just a pile of bleached bones, but he is still trying to flog it.

Weather to the east of Tovey's present position was of considerable importance because that is where German reinforcements, destroyers and Luftwaffe attacks would come from. Poor weather would delay them as you have pointed out.

All the best

wadinga
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:49 am

Hello everybody,

the regular weather communications :
Weather_1850_26th_May.jpg
(115.63 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Weather_0717_27th_May.jpg
(69.67 KiB) Not downloaded yet
A special weather communication, ... for the " shores of France " ... only for the C in C Home Fleet : Adm Tovey.
Weather_CinC_HF_0213_May_27th.jpg
(125.76 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:10 am

@Antonio:
Thanks, great post ! :clap:

We have now the text of at least one message in which the "shores of France" are indirectly mentioned (I guess the Bay of Biscay was for Tovey a clear indication of the most "famous" shores for the RN from an historical point of view).

I see no reason why a flag officer (ACNSH), instead of the Met Duty Officer, was sending to the C.in C. HF (and NOT broadcasting to everybody) the weather forecasts of an area 500 sea miles away from him, (excluding from the forecasts the France inland bases of the Luftwaffe :negative: and not giving the updated weather forecast of the area where Tovey was and where the battle actually happened :shock: ), if he was not implicitly intending that the KGV was requested to go up to the "shores of France".

Of course Tovey was not a stupid and he immediately understood the meaning of this signal, that AFTER his victory he felt as a personal threat (but initially he was "defensive" as correctly pointed out by G.Rhys-Jones).


Wadinga wrote: "Pound was providing nothing of value......"Why doesn't he leave me alone to get on with this bloody job! I" "
Someone "forgets" here that, left to himself and to the HF, Tovey had already lost the Bismarck and would have never got her again. :oops:
It was Pound (and Phillips) immediate decision to put under his command "nothing of value" like the Force H, the Rodney, the Ramillies, the Revenge and the Vian destroyers, that allowed him to become even "arrogant" with the Admiralty, but ONLY AFTER Bismarck was crippled by the Force H torpedo. :kaput:


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by dunmunro » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:43 am

Next we'll be reading tea leaves... Tovey was sent the weather for the Bay of Biscay because that's where the Germans had their French bases, including dozens, if not hundreds of Luftwaffe strike aircraft. Knowledge of the weather in that area was a vital asset for Tovey.

As I've explained Churchill was bound by the official secrets act and he could not reference an "expunged" message even if it did exist, just as he could not reveal the existence of the ULTRA code breaking system. However, if Churchill was given authorization to reveal the message then so could everyone else who knew about it...but no one has come forward because no such message was ever sent. A R.O.O.F. message prior to the 11:37B message doesn't exist and the only R.O.O.F message sent to Tovey was the 11:37B missive.

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Re: The KGV and Adm fuel signals on May 26 and 27.

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:54 am

Dunmunro wrote: "Tovey was sent the weather for the Bay of Biscay because that's where the Germans had their French bases, including dozens, if not hundreds of Luftwaffe strike aircraft."
Hi Duncan,
if your interpretation is correct:
  • 1) why was it sent by ACNSH (an officer sitting in the Admiraly board...) instead of by the Met.Duty Officer ? :think:
    2) Why was this message sent only to the C.in C. HF and not broadcasted to everybody as the other ones ? Was Somerville not interested, with his carrier airplanes meant to fly and fight over the Bay of Biscay ? :think:
    3) Why it gives weather conditions over the sea only and not over the Luftwaffe bases too (relevant for their capability to take off) ? :think:
    4) Mostly, why it gives weather forecasts over an area that Tovey had already clearly said he was not capable to reach with KGV (by far) due to his ship fuel situation ? :think:
Only a stupid RN officer, and Tovey was not a stupid, would not have understood what the Admiralty message implied : you must go up to the shores of France and consequently let KGV being towed back. Let's not be too naive here..... :negative:


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:23 am, edited 5 times in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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