Prinz Eugen firing procedures at DS

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alecsandros
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Re: Prinz Eugen firing procedures at DS

Post by alecsandros » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:29 pm

dunmunro wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:26 pm
alecsandros wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:23 pm
dunmunro wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:10 pm
logically Jasper's 28 salvos must include a mix of 8 and 4 gun salvos.
and the initial Vollsalve how many guns had in it ?
Page 39 of PE's War Diary states 8 guns.
It is a mistranslation. The German variant on pg 38 clearly states "Vollsalve".
Vollsalve doesn't have 8 guns. Bear in mind as well that the "Vollsalve" was repeated, with "lower limiting salvo" producing impacts, while the "higher and middle salvos" where "too far".

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Prinz Eugen firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:55 pm

Hello everybody,
Dunmunro wrote: "You've invented 44 salvos"
I was hoping to speak to a competent person: I just realize this guy is not. :(

In order to use McMullen methodology I had to normalize a "salvo" to a 4-guns-salvo, else it would have been impossible to use McMullen formulas.

44 is not "invented" because it does not even appear in the table. 46 = 184/4. (Elementary school calculation, but apparently my advise to these guys not to drink alcohol before posting has not been followed). :kaput:

All the discussions about the salvos, the semi-salvos, the broadsides etc. (albeit very interesting) are IRRELEVANT to the only key parameter: the effective number of shells delivered per minute (when all guns bearing, in case of PoW and PG). Of course firing broadsides would mean that the "apparent" RoF is slower, but the number of shells delivered per minute will NOT change.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Prinz Eugen firing procedures at DS

Post by dunmunro » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:59 pm

alecsandros wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:29 pm
dunmunro wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:26 pm
alecsandros wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:23 pm


and the initial Vollsalve how many guns had in it ?
Page 39 of PE's War Diary states 8 guns.
It is a mistranslation. The German variant on pg 38 clearly states "Vollsalve".
Vollsalve doesn't have 8 guns. Bear in mind as well that the "Vollsalve" was repeated, with "lower limiting salvo" producing impacts, while the "higher and middle salvos" where "too far".
The literal translation of "vollsalve" is "full salvo" and "vollsalve" is stated in the original German text. If "Vollsalve" isn't an 8 gun salvo this brings us back to the problem of Jasper stating the average salvo interval of 27.5 seconds and that 28 salvos were fired via forward director control.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Prinz Eugen firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:24 pm

Stop alcohol !

after having mixed up fired shells and ordered shots http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 319#p80481 (without even admitting his errors, as usual, being to arrogant)....
Dunmunro wrote again shamelessly: "28 salvos were fired via forward director control"
FALSE (see here: http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 750#p80509)

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Please post nonsense when sober ! At least listen at your denier friends (http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 420#p69464) before repeating the neverending ERRORS, trolling the forum.
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Re: Prinz Eugen firing procedures at DS

Post by dunmunro » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:33 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:55 pm
Hello everybody,
Dunmunro wrote: "You've invented 44 salvos"
I was hoping to speak to a competent person: I just realize this guy is not. :(

In order to use McMullen methodology I had to normalize a "salvo" to a 4-guns-salvo, else it would have been impossible to use McMullen formulas.

44 is not "invented" because it does not even appear in the table. 46 = 184/4. (Elementary school calculation, but apparently my advise to these guys not to drink alcohol before posting has not been followed). :kaput:

All the discussions about the salvos, the semi-salvos, the broadsides etc. (albeit very interesting) are IRRELEVANT to the only key parameter: the effective number of shells delivered per minute (when all guns bearing, in case of PoW and PG). Of course firing broadsides would mean that the "apparent" RoF is slower, but the number of shells delivered per minute will NOT change.


Bye, Alberto
Too much vino is causing your calculations to collapse... :oops: 44 represents the faulty foundations of your table.

Mcmullen's table is based upon 8 x 3 gun salvos and 10 x 5 guns salvos and the exact fire time whilst under AFCT control. and you cannot use or interpret MacMullen's methodology without that information, which is provided elsewhere in the GAR. Jasper doesn't provide us with the information needed to build a similar table with any exactitude, although we can make a table based upon some crude assumptions for the first 28 salvos fired.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Prinz Eugen firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:35 pm

Dunmunro wrote: "Too much vino is causing your calculations to collapse... :oops: 44 represents the faulty foundations of your table."
Alcohol is your problem !

Show me WHERE is the number 44 in my table ! NOW if you have dignity.

PoW_BS_PG_Output_Comparison_McMullen_rounded.jpg
PoW_BS_PG_Output_Comparison_McMullen_rounded.jpg (56.43 KiB) Viewed 185 times



Shame on you, old drunkard, repeating again and again, like a cretin: " 44, 28" (BOTH are wrong) refusing even to try to read what has been posted already twice.

For 28 see here if you are able to read..... http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 750#p80509

The correct figures are 46 and 33: you can try to play Lottery, as you are unable to make a better use of them.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Prinz Eugen firing procedures at DS

Post by wadinga » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:51 pm

Hello All,

Here we expose the basic ignorance.
Of course firing broadsides would mean that the "apparent" RoF is slower, but the number of shells delivered per minute will NOT change.
Rate of fire always relates to the same guns firing, not different guns. If Jasper says: The original German sentence you quote translates correctly to "average salvo rate". he must be talking about the same guns.
Well, if Alberto wants to submint a document for publication in the website's archives, he can always contact me via e-mail and let me know about it
Hello Esteemed Webmaster-

Yeah, and lipsticked pigs might fly out of my butt. A & A want to make money out of a sensationalist Conspiracy Theory, giving away information doesn't help that, withholding information does.


Hello Alecsandros,
Prince of Wales NEVER had the CONTINOUS firing solution towards the enemy. She fired 18 salvos on director control, in about 9 minutes, of which 3 salvos (no 6, 9, 13) straddled.
Her official G.A.R. clearly describes how the officers ATTEMPTED to KEEP the FIRING SOLUTION on the enemy, but that was not attained:
Good Point, wrong thread. Since Bismarck was turning away before Hood was destroyed, PoW never got her inclination (equals course) correct, but you only know that your FC solution is incorrect when your rapid fire fails to stay on the enemy. Because she could not achieve rapid fire (unlike Bismarck- see film) because her guns were so bad, which Leach knew, he knew after he had turned towards the enemy to avoid the wreck, as seen by everybody, German and British alike, (but not A & A), he had to withdraw- temporarily. Which he did.


These rapid changes of course by PoW screwed up Schneider's FC solution as badly as they did Reitmann's. Scheider didn't throw away ammunition when both his ship and the target were turning hard. Hence only 93 shells expended.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Re: Prinz Eugen firing procedures at DS

Post by dunmunro » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:04 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:35 pm
Dunmunro wrote: "Too much vino is causing your calculations to collapse... :oops: 44 represents the faulty foundations of your table."
Alcohol is your problem !

Show me WHERE is the number 44 in my table ! NOW if you have dignity.


PoW_BS_PG_Output_Comparison_McMullen_rounded.jpg




Shame on you, old drunkard, repeating again and again, like a cretin: " 44, 28" (BOTH are wrong) refusing even to try to read what has been posted already twice.

For 28 see here if you are able to read..... http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 750#p80509

The correct figures are 46 and 33: you can try to play Lottery, as you are unable to make a better use of them.
Yes, 44 should read 46 but since both are fictional numbers there's no harm done... :lol:

Maybe you can Multiply 46 x 27.5 seconds average salvo rate and then tell us how that fits into an open fire time of 0555 and ceasefire of 0609.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Prinz Eugen firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:12 pm

There's no harm done except the loss of time to allow you to get sober again and to read what other people post...... :kaput:


46 = 184/4 to obtain a "4-guns-salvos" number to compare PG firing with PoW as per McMullen (who knew the exact number of semi-salvos and did not need to calculate a figure)......

27-28 seconds is an interval of time among what? Semi-salvos, broadsides, mix, what ? We don't know (again: read what your denier friend wrote: http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 420#p69464).

The duration of the battle is written in PG KTB and it is 14 minutes (approximately). If you don't like it, YOUR PROBLEM, not mine.
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Re: Prinz Eugen firing procedures at DS

Post by dunmunro » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:46 pm

This is what we actually know expressed in the same format as per McMullen:

Image

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Re: Prinz Eugen firing procedures at DS

Post by dunmunro » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:59 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:12 pm
There's no harm done except the loss of time to allow you to get sober again and to read what other people post...... :kaput:


46 = 184/4 to obtain a "4-guns-salvos" number to compare PG firing with PoW as per McMullen (who knew the exact number of semi-salvos and did not need to calculate a figure)......

27-28 seconds is an interval of time among what? Semi-salvos, broadsides, mix, what ? We don't know (again: read what your denier friend wrote: http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 420#p69464).

The duration of the battle is written in PG KTB and it is 14 minutes (approximately). If you don't like it, YOUR PROBLEM, not mine.
46 salvos is not written in Jasper's statement.

27-28 seconds average per salvo is written in Jasper's statement

28 salvos under forward director control is written in Jasper's statement.

additional salvos are fired by after director control is written in Jasper's statement.

The approximate times for open fire and cease fire of 0555-0609 are written in Jasper's statement.

My calculations all fit within the parameters as set out by Jasper's statement - Your's don't :!:

Engineers whose calculations lead to collapse do have a problem... :oops:

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Re: Prinz Eugen firing procedures at DS

Post by dunmunro » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:57 pm

This is what we know about PoW and PE with some speculation for Bismarck in terms of ceasefire times:

Image

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Prinz Eugen firing procedures at DS

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:23 am

Hello everybody,

not even looking at the above tables, edited by an ignorant unable to build his own spreadsheet, after having understood 1) the formulas used by McMullen in his GAR (http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... 09guns.htm) and 2) the need to normalize German fire to the British firing methodology (semi-salvos) in order to be able to compare the two of them, :lol:


* 46 salvos are CALCULATED normalizing the 184 ordered shots to 4-guns salvos (as in McMullen table the salvos are all semi-salvos). In my salvo chart the salvos are not 46 (but again everything has already been posted and I will not get back to it).

* 27-28 seconds average per salvo is written by Jasper but we don't know what they mean (semi-salvos or full salvos or a mix ?). Just to laugh at this guy, PoW salvo rate was 1,9 salvo/minute (McMullen), while PG had a 2,2 salvo/minute (27-28 seconds, Jasper)..... but PG was able to fire 157 shells in 14 minutes, PoW 55 in 8,5 minutes.... Is he able to see the idiocy of his reasoning comparing the two values ?

* 28 salvos AFTER having been ZEROED by the change of target (as confirmed by another denier). 33 salvos (5+28) include at least 3 Vollsalve. It is explained at length here http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... 420#p69464 by his denier friend.

* salvos fired by after director control are taken into account in my table as well as 3 guns-salvos are included in McMullen table (when Y turret was wooded) via the ordered shots figure....

* The approximate times for open fire and cease fire of 0555-0609 are written in Jasper's statement. = 14 minutes as per my table[/list]



His above bullshit, being a careless manual edit over an existing spreadsheet, mixing oranges and apples (full salvos with semi-salvos, inventing for his own purposes a count of salvo that is not the one used by Jasper, etc.) is the demonstration of his severe limit. SHAME on him and good luck for the publication of his speculations. :lol:



Bye, Alberto
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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Prinz Eugen firing procedures at DS

Post by Herr Nilsson » Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:15 am

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:23 am
* 27-28 seconds average per salvo is written by Jasper but we don't know what they mean (semi-salvos or full salvos or a mix ?).
That's not quite true.

Apropos, what about Brinkmann's "PG had fired 179 rounds" in contrast to Jasper's 8+149 rounds?
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Marc

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Prinz Eugen firing procedures at DS

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:46 am

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

you wrote :
That's not quite true.

Apropos, what about Brinkmann's "PG had fired 179 rounds" in contrast to Jasper's 8+149 rounds?
Very good, ... let us have at first your own interpretation about the above points you are mentioning, ... :wink:

This way we will have something to fairly discuss about ... :wink:

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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