Hits on PoW and Bismarck

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Herr Nilsson » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:13 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:43 pm
Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

as stated, there is a good not edited version of that photo available at the Bundesarchiv - Freiburg into the Lagemann file with reference Bild 146-1968-015-012.

Hello Antonio,

The Bundesarchiv picture seems to be the same edited picture like the one from Busch's book. Anyway, Alberto's picture is good enough to get a very, very good solution.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:18 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nillson,

:ok:

As you know there are at least another half a dozen photos taken on the same PG Rheinubung film time frame able to show the same things.

NH_69728_detail.jpg
NH_69728_detail.jpg (76.3 KiB) Viewed 2751 times

On the current PG film time we are talking from 05:40 until 07:12 = 92 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPmkOtSveXY

We need to remove the 8 seconds ( Hood and PoW ) intentionally inserted on it for Propaganda reasons and that makes the Bismarck whole entire sequence ( 1+2 part ) been 84 seconds long.

You correctly realized that the film is a bit too much " accelerated " and I have asked you on the other thread how much you think is accelerated.
If I recall correctly you mentioned a 33%, … so I have used a 25% reduction factor.

I have tried the 75% speed with the you tube option and it seems to me more correct of course, … but I like your opinion here.

Once we establish a more accurate timing, then we will be able to determine more precisely the photos in relation to Bismarck using the PG Film and the associated Prinz Eugen original track timing between 06:03 and 30 seconds and a bit after 06:05, … depending just on the " new " PG film sequence length that right now is 84 seconds, … but plus 25%, … will become 105 seconds, … so 1 minute and 45 seconds.

I like your opinion about this now, …

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Herr Nilsson » Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:14 pm

Antonio,

yes, I know. After Alberto had remind me, that there was this picture, I scanned the one from Bush's book. This picture drove me mad, because there was absoutely no match. :stubborn: Full of despair I even tried to make Bismarck sail away! :oops: But this made it even worse. :pray: The main problem was that the stern apparently is much too long for any solution. Then I've checked the film...Lo and behold... I was right. The outlines of the ship are edited and I switched back to the picture Alberto posted. Anyway, I'm still working on it, but I'm almost ready. In any case I think it's better to post my results in a dedicated thread.

edit:
The picture you've posted is edited as well...or better it has a big scratch, because the bow is missing.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:08 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

I see and I know what you mean, ... but those are just the quality of the photo that sometimes we have to work with, ... the ones after 06:05 and NH 69727 and before the NH 69729 are even much worst to work with, ... :( ... we are particularly lucky when we find a good one ... :wink:

As I have stated, ... there were 5 persons in my opinion taking photos on the Prinz Eugen, ... and some took them very badly ( focus ) and/or a lot under exposed.

The perfect knowledge of the Bismarck mechanical structures, main turrets, rangefinder and radar rotation look, ... is key in this case.

Another important, ... vital factor is the PG film correlation, ... becuse they are all in there as a single frame, ... and the Bismarck was sailing in parallel with Prinz Eugen for more than a minute, ... like her shadow clearly demonstrate, ... so the course was 270° wast like for Prinz Eugen.

Take it easy, ... the world waited more than 70 years for this already, ... they can wait few more years.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by wadinga » Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:28 pm

Hello Antonio,

I asked, in a very respectful way, if you, who have been to the Bundesarchiv and physically handled the material would confirm whether
Eine der letzten Granaten der "Hood", die über Prinz Eugen hinwegheulend als Weitschüsse in die See fuhren. Im Hintergrund Bismarck.
Foto Lagemann
is written on or with the photograph Bild 146-1968-015-012.


A very simple question and one which does not require you to disown your opinions. You could quite easily confirm whether this wording is on the photographs themselves and still steadfastly maintain that whoever wrote it was incorrect.


You have instead reproduced both the 10A and 12 suffix photographs with the text described as being found on or with the photographs. Once again you have merely re-iterated your explanation/conclusion/assertion;
both captions are surely wrong mentioning the Hood and needs to be changed to PoW, despite who wrote anything anywhere.

You have suggested that this matter was "solved" some years ago, but it has not been. Merely insisting that because you believe the film showing the same events happened at a particular clock time time, that means these photos happened at that same clock time, is a circular argument.


Alberto has challenged to provide me Lagemann's signature to the description
Eine der letzten Granaten der "Hood", die über Prinz Eugen hinwegheulend als Weitschüsse in die See fuhren. Im Hintergrund Bismarck.
Foto Lagemann
You know whether it is there or not. Why not be straightforward and say so? Do you prefer to discuss this on the ancient thread you have re-animated?

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:06 pm

Hello everybody,

back is the defeated troll with his last favorite topic: captions....instead of answering points mathematically demonstrating he is wrong. :kaput:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8329&start=210#p81086


Why nobody is willing to (very politely and softly :wink:) explain him (more respectfully than I did) that what he babbles (splashes from Hood shells in the photo and film :!: ) is simply a delirious nonsense (or possibly just a frantic denial in order to try to counter what is incontrovertible) ?


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Byron Angel » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:32 am

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:06 pm
Hello everybody,

back is the defeated troll with his last favorite topic: captions....instead of answering points mathematically demonstrating he is wrong. :kaput:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8329&start=210#p81086


Why nobody is willing to (very politely and softly :wink:) explain him (more respectfully than I did) that what he babbles (splashes from Hood shells in the photo and film :!: ) is simply a delirious nonsense (or possibly just a frantic denial in order to try to counter what is incontrovertible) ?


Bye, Alberto

Good Lord ..... allow me to make a modest proposal for your gentlemanly consideration: give the insults a rest. My interest in visiting this site (and I suspect that of most others) does not include having to wade through a seemingly endless stream of insult and invective directed at someone whose fault appears to me to be that he simply fails to agree with you on certain points.

Try the following alternative response - "We shall simply have to agree to disagree".

It works very well in maintaining a polite and orderly atmosphere.

B

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Re: Hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:45 am

Hi Byron,
you wrote: "insult and invective directed at someone whose fault appears to me to be that he simply fails to agree with you on certain points"
No, I totally disagree. First of all, it was not me starting the insults and the mocking (as per evidences I have posted several times already).
This guy's simple fault is that he refuses geometry and mathematics viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5752&start=930#p80769 because he has a well known agenda.

Everybody here (even who does not agree with me on the interpretation consequent to the battle reconstruction) has confirmed that Bismarck was on a course around 220° until Hood explosion (or later), because this is an incontrovertible fact, demonstrated by PoW salvo plot, showing a closing relative speed of 30 knots between Bismarck and PoW.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8329&start=135#p80975
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8329&start=150#p80997
He has never answered these points, never proposed a credible alternative, just coming back each time with a different speculation (now the "captions", they used to be the "interpretation of ADM 205/10 (crystal clear) papers", "1990 map being the most precise", "reliability of Tovey memory", etc.) to try to deny what, in this specific case, is simply mathematically irrefutable: the PG film (and related photos) was turned when Hood had already gone and PoW was sailing away.


By now Mr.Wadinga is just trolling the forum to avoid the inconvenient (for him) truth to finally surface, he does it since a while and he deserves no politeness in doing that. Paul Mercer has already proposed several times your "solution" (to agree to disagree) and this guy never accepted it: now he will get the deserved treatment (e.g. Antonio has already decided not to answer to this zero-value guy anymore) until someone from his side will convince him that posting nonsense instead of facts will not be tolerated anymore.


Bye, Alberto


P.S. What about his insults, like mocking at a tragedy supporting a low anti-nationalistic attack ? viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5752&p=80377&hilit=bazinga#p80377
Have you condemned it, as you do now with my straight-talking ? I have not seen your intervention at the time....
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by wadinga » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:42 pm

Hello Alberto,

You don't consider calling a man who was killed in his country's service, Captain John Catterall Leach a "coward" or another man Frederic Wake-Walker who died, possibly through overwork and strain in that service, a "coward" is pretty insulting? Based on the flimsy ragbag of so-called evidence you have scraped up over the last few years? As has been observed you can barely pen a post without insulting the intelligence, education or opinion of other posters simply because they do not agree with you.

Unless you were actually closely involved with the Italian bridge disaster and are actually culpable in some way, your feigned outrage is similar to the "diving" techniques employed by some footballers. It was a witty rejoinder to your endless insults to others over your assumption of mathematical superiority over them. This is no place for histrionic over-reaction.


Antonio has decided not to answer whether there is an original 1941 caption very likely written by Lagemann himself, and employs you to create a smokescreen. The reason is clear. the meticulous Bundesarchiv has supplied genuine 1941 material, identifying the splashes as coming from Hood, and Antonio refuses to admit it. When Busch's book says it comes from a Battlecruiser he is wrong in your opinion, and when he says he sees a mast at 9 miles he is wrong and you tell us he saw Suffolk and got a radar range.


You and Antonio are perfectly entitled to your opinions but you cannot object to being informed every time you restate them that others do not believe you.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:42 pm

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "You don't consider calling a man who was killed in his country's service, Captain John Catterall Leach a "coward" or another man Frederic Wake-Walker who died, possibly through overwork and strain in that service, a "coward" is pretty insulting? "
I think I have never insulted (or mocked) first people writing here.

The historical judgement of the actions of (long time dead) officers is another matter and has nothing to do with "personal" insults nor judgement.
Mr.Wadinga has himself "insulted" as "stupid" a dead (doing his utmost) officer viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6323&p=70880&hilit=arbuthnot#p70880, having possibly some good reasons for saying so from historical judgement viewpoint.
In the same way, I have all rights to call "timid" a couple officers running away in front of the enemy, and being even decorated :oops: for having done so, after a request of BofI/CM into their conduct in action.

But this doesn't allow insulting (or mocking) each other on a forum as the deniers started doing long time ago, as I have posted. I'm ready of course to get back to a more polite discussion, when these people will have presented their excuses.


Wadinga wrote: "You and Antonio are perfectly entitled to your opinions but you cannot object to being informed every time you restate them that others do not believe you"
..and Mr.Wadinga is entitled to still believe his fantasies but he MUST provide answers to a mathematically demonstrated Bismarck closing rate to PoW (see me viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5752&start=930#p80769, Mr.Jurens viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8329&start=135#p80975 and Mr.Nilsson viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8329&start=150#p80997) showing he is wrong, else it means he is just trolling with his "captions".

He should demonstrate that he has not a mathematical deficiency compared to the others on this forum.



Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:41 pm

Hello everybody,

the real revelation everybody will easily realize in the Bundesarchiv while managing the Lagemann file will be this one :

Lagemann_file_Schmitz_Westerholt_print.jpg
Lagemann_file_Schmitz_Westerholt_print.jpg (91.11 KiB) Viewed 2483 times

which is a logic confirmation of the PoW gunnery plot, the Bismarck closure rate with PoW, and as many forum members has already clearly understood will end up just confirming my 2005 map :

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8335&p=81065#p81065

The PG Film started after the 06:03 and the Prinz Eugen torpedo alarm as written into the Kriegsmarine official documents.

Consequently all the contained photos have been taken from 06:03 and 30 seconds, ... and soon after 06:05 battle time.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Byron Angel » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:15 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:45 am
Hi Byron,
you wrote: "insult and invective directed at someone whose fault appears to me to be that he simply fails to agree with you on certain points"
No, I totally disagree. First of all, it was not me starting the insults and the mocking (as per evidences I have posted several times already).
This guy's simple fault is that he refuses geometry and mathematics viewtopic.php?
- - -

If you feel so strongly about pursuing this, may I suggest that you do so via Private Message. Why must the rest of the forum members endure this seemingly endless stream of unpleasantness?

B

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Re: Hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:33 pm

Hi Byron,
you wrote: " Why must the rest of the forum members endure this seemingly endless stream of unpleasantness?"
Please, suggest the same to Mr.Wadinga. Why must the rest of the forum members endure this seemingly endless stream of trolling nonsense ?

Many thanks in advance.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by wadinga » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:03 pm

Hello Antonio,
the real revelation everybody will easily realize in the Bundesarchiv while managing the Lagemann file will be this one
Bild 146-1968-015-18. An "artist's impression" from an unobtainable point-of-view as "proof", instead of simply providing the requested confirmation (or otherwise) of the Bundesarchiv's attribution of:

Eine der letzten Granaten der "Hood", die über Prinz Eugen hinwegheulend als Weitschüsse in die See fuhren. Im Hintergrund Bismarck.
Foto Lagemann

to an original 1941 annotation to the print, possibly by Lagemann. This point blank refusal to answer at all, strongly suggests three things:

1) It is annotated with this in 1941.
2) It was annotated by someone who knew which ship was firing at Prinz Eugen, and knew Hood was still firing at the time.
3) You are uninterested in uncovering real evidence, but deliberately withhold it where it contradicts your assertions.

I can count up to three. :cool:

BTW There is nothing "unpleasant" about pointing out that whilst you parade your unrivalled access to and knowledge of the Lagemann file, giving you an "Olympian View" superior to that of other posters, you refuse to answer this simple question. Other viewers will decide whether your (in)action on this constitutes "unpleasant behaviour".

For Alberto:
As an aside, Arbuthnot's actions in pitting outmoded armoured cruisers at point blank range against the van of the High Seas Fleet at Jutland were completely pointless, in the process almost colliding with, and severely disrupting Beatty's Battle cruisers. As a former naval officer would you have preferred to be called stupid or cowardly? Oh, actually you've answered this already:

You called him foolish
Despite his foolishness, I see he was rewarded for his "stupid" courage and, as an officer, I would prefer to be decorated posthumously for a brave stupidity than to be Court-Martialled and disgraced for an alleged "cowardice".
:think:
All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Re: Hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Byron Angel » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:25 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:33 pm
Hi Byron,
you wrote: " Why must the rest of the forum members endure this seemingly endless stream of unpleasantness?"
Please, suggest the same to Mr.Wadinga. Why must the rest of the forum members endure this seemingly endless stream of trolling nonsense ?

Many thanks in advance.


Bye, Alberto

Your above response is that of a petulant schoolboy. Very disappointing.

B

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