PoW readiness for active service

[wadinga]

Fellow Contributors,

During a discussion between Alecsandros and Dunmunro in 2010 the following quote from the AVKS report was cited

During the eight­week period that the AVKS was onboard, the calibrations of the elevation
remote control had changed repeatedly...Since the calibration work is very
difficult and time­ consuming, and since it cannot be readily performed by insufficiently trained
mechanic personnel, this means that there will be a persistent uncertainty factor of this
equipment for the time being.

and another

Caliber shooting of the heavy and intermediate artilleries two times
daily.

The problems inherent in attempting to use 1941 gyros and sensors to remote control the main armament instead of the trained gunlayer's eye following the pointers, were a major source of grief for the AVKS boffins. Bismarck's highly sophisticated systems provided excessive over-complication which could be dispensed with in action.

and knowing this info is simply wrong, as many more rounds were fired, as proven by the full Vickers report

One could make amends for one's previous redactions if these details were provided. Now.

All the best

wadinga

[alecsandros]

Gentlemen,
Re 'Combat experience, would it be fair to say that at this stage of the war very few 'heavy' ships on either side had actual combat experience?

My impression is that there were plenty of experienced crews on both sides (see Hood, Ark Royal, Renown, Warspite, Gneisenau, Scharnhorst, Hipper, etc).

it was fate that decided that the 2 newest battleships of the Royal Navy and German navy, respectively, would engage (face-off) in combat with each other on their maiden voyages...

[Alberto Virtuani]

Hello everybody,

I hope it's clear for everybody (even for the most insisting ones...) that I will not provide any further info about the content nor the location of the "Vickers" report and of the Admiralty trials details report.


The only new original info you and everybody have got from me (thanks to Paul Mercer kind request) are Mr.Wilkinson conclusions at the end of the early May gunnery trials (done firing the guns):

"Trials were satisfactory, some minor faults were invariably found on such a mass of machinery, and even in times of peace these could be never wholly eliminated"

If someone prefers to think I have invented these words from Wilkinson and that Barben meant that the only fired rounds were on May 15, he will be free to think so only until our book will be published, then he will be rubbished forever by evidences.


Bye, Alberto

[alecsandros]

One could make amends for one's previous redactions if these details were provided. Now.

All the best

wadinga

Wadinga, AVKS copy available on Kbismarck.com archives (free) has the following:
page 9:
tests at sea: start 19.03; intended end: 11.04. Actual end: 02.04



What you are mentioning is the time spent in harbour (6 weeks), added with the time on the open sea (2 weeks). The 6 weeks spent in harbour were due to failures of the steam pipe insulation, leading to cracks into the steam pipes (requiring much repair work in harbor) , then to the ice blockage.

Note that the warlog lists AVKS mission on the open sea as being executed between 18.03 and 01.04 (slightly off with 1 day), and containing 4 days of subcalibre main battery firing.

[alecsandros]

Caliber shooting of the heavy and intermediate artilleries two times
daily.

That does not come from AVKS report,
but from ship reconstructed warlog, for the interval of Apr 16th-30th (outside AVKS interval). They are listed as sub-calibre firings, and do not appear in the day by day entries in the warlog.

I have posted about them a few hours ago.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8523&start=45#p82984

===

[paul.mercer]

Hi Alecsandros,
Re 'My impression is that there were plenty of experienced crews on both sides (see Hood, Ark Royal, Renown, Warspite, Gneisenau, Scharnhorst, Hipper, etc').
I would agree, but how many had actual ship to ship combat experience using their heavy guns, other that a few who had served in WW1 (if there were any? After all, Hood v the French fleet in harbour was basically a'Turkey Shoot,' Renown v the Twins was indecisive because of the weather,the twins avoided battle with comparable ships if at all possible, Hipper fought some destroyers and got rammed for her trouble, Ark Royal did not have heavy guns, which leaves Warspite who actually engaged Italian battleships and along with Valiant and Malaya blew some Italian cruisers to bit at close range.
I'm certainly not trying to take credit away from any of them on all sides,they may well have been experience as regards training and practice, but what I am trying to say that very few had to go through the same sort of battle experience that PoW and Bismarck did.

[Herr Nilsson]

In any case, the fact that, in her captain own words , "the crew completely lacked real combat experience" and that the "state of preparations [of the crew] compares favourably to that of a full-scale battle inspection in the good years of peace time" , shows that the mighty Bismarck was far from being a fully efficient ship...

That's a pretty distorted quotation and also lacks background knowledge. Lindemann says:

The state of training that has been reached comparatively complies with that of a capital's ship readiness of a full scale battle inspection in the good years of peacetime. Although the crew, with few exceptions, completely lacks real combat experience, I have the assuring feeling that all forthcoming combat demands will be readily dealt with. This feeling is strengthened by the fact that the combat value of this ship in connection with the state of training awakens great confidence in every man so that - for the first time in a long time - we can feel at least equal against any opponent.

In peace time the Kriegsmarine ships usually had cycles of two years. The first year was an "Ausbildungsjahr" (training year) and the second year was called "Manöverjahr" (military exercise year). A full scale battle inspection in peace time was made during the Manöverjahr. So actually Lindemann says the state of training of the crew couldn't be better and the only way to improve it is real combat experience.

[Herr Nilsson]

Caliber shooting of the heavy and intermediate artilleries two times
daily.

That does not come from AVKS report,
but from ship reconstructed warlog, for the interval of Apr 16th-30th (outside AVKS interval). They are listed as sub-calibre firings, and do not appear in the day by day entries in the warlog.

I have posted about them a few hours ago.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8523&start=45#p82984

===

No, caliber shooting not sub-caliber.

[alecsandros]

No, caliber shooting not sub-caliber.

My bad.

The English-translated warlog writes calibre shooting with reduced charge.

[alecsandros]

In peace time the Kriegsmarine ships usually had cycles of two years. The first year was an "Ausbildungsjahr" (training year) and the second year was called "Manöverjahr" (military exercise year). A full scale battle inspection in peace time was made during the Manöverjahr. So actually Lindemann says the state of training of the crew couldn't be better and the only way to improve it is real combat experience.

We have discussed this in the past Marc.

I seem to remember you read Adm. Schiewind's position in regards to Prinz Eugen's warlog (specifically point 6 of his letter), and some survivor reports mentioning lack of discipline and morale aboard the battleship.

In this context, and well knowing - as you explicitly wrote above - about the '2 years rule' - while the Bismarck had approx. 8 months between commissioning (Aug 24th) and 'combat readiness' (as declared by Lindemann on Apr 28th) , of which 5 months were spent in harbour, leaving only 3 months for actual training on the open seas, what is your current perspective about the state of preparation of the German battleship for executing Rheinubung ?

[alecsandros]

any? After all, Hood v the French fleet in harbour was basically a'Turkey Shoot

Hood chased Strasbourg and fired in a stern chase. Actual firing against harbour-targets, while the enemy was returning fire, and is trying to torpedo you with submarines, is anyway far different from trials shoots (where nobody shoots back). Similar case with Scharnhorst, etc.

However, battleship versus battleship combat in WW2 was rare indeed.

[wadinga]

Fellow Contributors,

To avoid other "my bads" could Herr Nilsson translate:

Je 2 Tageskaliberschießen der S.A. und M.A.

Does it specify reduced charge shooting, as the records for PoW do, prior to the 60 shot test, thus failing to stress the mechanisms with full charge firing?

Sub calibre firing is described as Abkommschiessen der SA und MA

It would be interesting to hear Herr Nilsson's opinion but more valid are Bismarck's captain's.In the KTB Lindemann records in March P79-80,

Until now the Artillery Testing Command's time on board was a good way to gauge the artillery personnel's level of training as well as the physical condition of the artillery systems. Although the personnel's performance was not yet at 100% it was quite satisfactory. Gross failures did not occur. Various physical failures did occur in the [artillery] installation, but their causes were determined in each case, and they were therefore dealt with and they did not cause any delays. The repair of failures was immediately requested by telegraph and it is expected that the artillery systems will be in perfect order at the time of the mission. The training of the personnel of the artillery crews will be considerably improved by the still not completed calibre and sub-calibre firing exercises.

The success of the practice carried out so far is recorded a few sentences later by:

Almost on every firing day, targets were destroyed and then lost due to loss of appropriate salvage facilities.

Lindemann has another 2 months of intensive training before the mission, and this is one month before PoW even gets her last turret(s) accepted.



I have no belief that Alecsandros has deliberately withheld information so to distort a document's meaning. We can all make errors. He needs make no amends.

[Text edited by the moderator team]

All the best

wadinga

[Herr Nilsson]

In peace time the Kriegsmarine ships usually had cycles of two years. The first year was an "Ausbildungsjahr" (training year) and the second year was called "Manöverjahr" (military exercise year). A full scale battle inspection in peace time was made during the Manöverjahr. So actually Lindemann says the state of training of the crew couldn't be better and the only way to improve it is real combat experience.

We have discussed this in the past Marc.

I seem to remember you read Adm. Schiewind's position in regards to Prinz Eugen's warlog (specifically point 6 of his letter), and some survivor reports mentioning lack of discipline and morale aboard the battleship.

In this context, and well knowing - as you explicitly wrote above - about the '2 years rule' - while the Bismarck had approx. 8 months between commissioning (Aug 24th) and 'combat readiness' (as declared by Lindemann on Apr 28th) , of which 5 months were spent in harbour, leaving only 3 months for actual training on the open seas, what is your current perspective about the state of preparation of the German battleship for executing Rheinubung ?

What context?

[alecsandros]

Wadinga,
As always, an informed discussion is based on question - answer, and then another question.

You did not address the answers I have provided, specifically the warlog entries containing days of sub-calibre and reduced charge firing (4 days during AVKS, 1 or more days during initial breaking in of the guns, and perhaps 15 days between Apr 16th-30th, although it's curious that no individual days are described).

The 'declarations ' of Lindemann that you have copied and pasted do not touch upon the state of material readiness of the ship as a gunnery platform, note that they refer to events that will happen in the future 'and it is expected that the artillery systems will be in perfect order at the time of the mission. The training of the personnel of the artillery crews will be considerably improved by the still not completed calibre and sub-calibre firing exercises'. Etc.

[alecsandros]

What context?

Of Adm. Schniewind's position statement correlated with Bismarck survivor reports describing , or indicating, the state of preparedness (training) of the crew.