Moderator: Bill Jurens
Alberto Virtuani wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:03 pm
Totally incorrect and very misleading statement. Nowhere it is written that the 6 shells per gun fired in the last trials on May 15 were the only ones fired by PoW.Wadinga wrote: " the recently exposed original 1941 evidence that PoW fired only 6 shots per gun in trials in May "
It's not detailed in Mr.Wilkinson report, who at pag.10 just says "When all guns had fired the allotted rounds" during the early May trials, before he left the ship.Dunmunro wrote: "Perhaps you could state how many full calibre rounds were actually fired? "
So having been given the Admiralty intended report, you are thereby silenced regarding it's content.Alberto Virtuani wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:24 pm Hello everybody,
It's not detailed in Mr.Wilkinson report, who at pag.10 just says "When all guns had fired the allotted rounds" during the early May trials, before he left the ship.Dunmunro wrote: "Perhaps you could state how many full calibre rounds were actually fired? "
It is in the report prepared for the Admiralty, that I have seen already but someone else has in his hands and asked me not to spread: unfortunately for the ones who request these info, I'm able to keep my word...
Bye, Alberto
dunmunro wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:53 pmSo having been given the Admiralty intended report, you are thereby silenced regarding it's content.Alberto Virtuani wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:24 pm Hello everybody,
It's not detailed in Mr.Wilkinson report, who at pag.10 just says "When all guns had fired the allotted rounds" during the early May trials, before he left the ship.Dunmunro wrote: "Perhaps you could state how many full calibre rounds were actually fired? "
It is in the report prepared for the Admiralty, that I have seen already but someone else has in his hands and asked me not to spread: unfortunately for the ones who request these info, I'm able to keep my word...
Bye, Alberto
Finally I see what was lost in translation. Lindemann declares "Kriegsbereitschaft/Einsatzbereitschaft" and Schniewind ist talking about "Gefechtsbereitschaft", both is translated as "combat readiness". Lindemann talks about to be fit for (wartime) service, but Schniewind is talking about readiness just before a combat.alecsandros wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:15 pmJunack's intentions are unknown to us, but that doesn't mean , with necessity, that his statement should be disregarded.Herr Nilsson wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:21 pm Junack's Gestapo connection isn't very important in my opinion. Much more important is his intention to keep things secret. So we don't know if this is a deliberately misinformation or not or if this is just a attempt to be taken into account of an exchange of prisoners.
The depression on May 25th was Lütjens' fault. I doubt that any of us would be so hard-boiled that it wouldn't have negative effects on our morals.
Schniewind doesn't say that Bismarck or Prinz Eugen wasn't combat ready. Schniewind basically just says that combat readiness is well and good, but "the highest combat readiness one can think of" is better. The only way to reach it (aside from real combat experience) is to make a ...let's say..."dress rehearsal" simulating all kinds of possible/expected situations including other ships, airplanes, enemy bombers, enemy torpedo airplanes, enemy submarine attacks and protected convoys. That means he just asks for (more) additional training of the particular task...."within the bounds of possibility"...of course.
(After all, why would anybody try to return to their home country by tipping off his capturers about future plans to warn his comrades of the need to increase combat training ? That seems counter to his tentative motive to me. Something like the need to reunite with his family or to start a new peacefull life would be far more normal in that regard)
Luetjens had a poor relationship with Lindemann, and the officers amongst them apparently had poor connections , especially after the destruction of the Hood (when some officers wanted to go back to Norway, while others pressed on for France). This was probably badly felt amongst the highly inexperienced crew (the phrase from the British interrogation of survivors is "exceptionally inexperienced crew").
Schniewind makes recommandations for future breakouts based on the events that happened during Rheinubung. The longest paragraphs are dedicated to training and morale strengthenening... with only two words in the entire letter being underlined - "combat readiness". That doesn't prove or disprove anything in itself, but it adds to the context that the ship , or ships, was/were somewhat unprepared for the task.
Lindemann had 6 weeks of training curtailed, after which he was struck with the telegram or telegrams, informing him of rapid departure into Rheinbung. He was probably still repairing damage from the Kiel canal impact when he received the first news... That came after 3 weeks of staying locked by ice, which came after 3 weeks of damage repair owing to faulty insulation of the steam pipes, which came after 5 weeks of stay in the dockyard in Hamburg, doing the modifications and adding various equipment which wasn't previously on board. The only training done with a more-or-less complete ship, and with a more-or-less complete crew was during AVKS (2 weeks in March), and during the weeks that he had at his disposal in April and May (about 4 weeks in total) .
I understand your point of view and I respect it.Herr Nilsson wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:57 am Finally I see what was lost in translation. Lindemann declares "Kriegsbereitschaft/Einsatzbereitschaft" and Schniewind ist talking about "Gefechtsbereitschaft", both is translated as "combat readiness". Lindemann talks about to be fit for (wartime) service, but Schniewind is talking about readiness just before a combat.
IMHO Bismarck was fit for service and PoW was not.
Alberto Virtuani wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:03 pm
...... Mr.Barben accounts for a night and dawn shoot" to his boss. Mr.Wilkinson, who had just left PoW after the extensive trials run with the Admiralty representatives onboard, that he himself accounts for at page 10 of the report (as you may notice on the right top of the page, this is page 12, out of a total of 20, as the friends who have received the full report know very well) and based on which a detailed document was prepared for the Admiralty, as final PoW gunnery trials results report after tests done "with all guns firing the allotted rounds", pag.10 of the above report).
......
I'm just responsible for German translations.alecsandros wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:45 am Ah, ok.
I don't understand the final phrase though. The one with honey-combing of compartment. What does it mean ?