Some questions about the battle at the Denmark Strait

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: Some questions about the battle at the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:33 am

#3 I'm undecided, therefore I would like to abstain from voting.
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Marc

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Re: Some questions about the battle at the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:54 pm

Fellow Contributors,

I have been busy elsewhere. Glad to contribute.

Question No 3
Do you agree that the film sequence of Bismarck firing included in the PG battle film was taken at a later period of time than the photo shown in question #2 ?
A question about the question, and why some might wish to abstain. I think it should say "Do you believe...………..

Anyway. No. There is no evidence in this still, that it was even taken at the Battle of the Denmark Straits. With no enemy shell splashes there is no evidence it was even taken during a battle.

The subtext of question No 3 addresses one of the most fundamental unanswered questions of this action, how Bismarck, distantly astern in the photograph "suddenly " closes to within a few hundred metres of Prinz Eugen, potentially collision distance, and certainly target-obscuring distance, in just a few minutes.

Luckily we have a trained photogrammetrist and cartographer in our midst, and he has presented his opinion:
renders it difficult to do more than assign a probability.
Others have their beliefs.

If we had more metadata about the photograph in the Bundesarchive, say any annotation written on it by the photographer, it would affect both probability and "belief".

All the best

wadinga
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Re: Some questions about the battle at the Denmark Strait

Post by pgollin » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:25 pm

Herr Nilsson wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:33 am
#3 I'm undecided, therefore I would like to abstain from voting.

.

Same for me I'm afraid.

.

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José M. Rico
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Re: Some questions about the battle at the Denmark Strait

Post by José M. Rico » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:36 am

wadinga wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:54 pm
Anyway. No. There is no evidence in this still, that it was even taken at the Battle of the Denmark Straits. With no enemy shell splashes there is no evidence it was even taken during a battle.
Well, then I guess you could say the same about at least half a dozen other photos taken by Lagemann "during Battle of the Denmark Strait".
There is no evidence the photo below was even taken during a battle.
Image

Anyway thanks for your answer.

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Re: Some questions about the battle at the Denmark Strait

Post by Byron Angel » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:17 am

I'm all for exercising proper caution when evaluating historical evidence. But, just as danger lies in assuming that a plausible assumption = fact, danger also lurks in setting exceedingly stringent standards for validation of evidence.

In the case of this Denmark Strait imagery -
1 - It is pretty certain that a film crew was in fact aboard Prinz Eugen during Operation Rheinubung;
2 - It must also be accepted as fairly certain that they must have shot footage during the action of 24 May;
3 - There was precious little opportunity for Prinz Eugen and Bismarck to have done a "photo shoot" on any other occasion prior to Bismarck's demise.

Therefore, I would accept the film footage as genuine unless some convincing evidence to the contrary were to emerge.

FWIW.

B

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Re: Some questions about the battle at the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:46 am

Hello everybody,
It has been said: "Luckily we have a trained photogrammetrist and cartographer in our midst..."
....and, very luckily, we used to have among us a person who had studied all images and who has been able to put them together and to reconstruct the battle in the best possible way up to now: Antonio Bonomi.

His 2005 reconstruction (see pag.13 here http://www.kbismarck.com/ds-barticle.pdf), albeit by now superceeded by the 2017 publication on "Storia Militare" (download/file.php?id=2313) re. the British cruisers position, is still used in most of new publications as a reference: it explains exactly when photos and film frames were taken and how Bismarck closed vs PG in "just in few minutes".

When an original different battlemap will be available from a "new publication" providing new evidences, we will be able to discuss. For the time being, there is no way to time the film in a different way than after the PG turn (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8491&p=82759&hilit=railings#p82759) and thus much after the photo #2, based on what we have at hand.



Byron Angel wrote: "I would accept the film footage as genuine..."
Thanks for this point.
However, I have not got the answer of Mr.Angel to the question #3 : "Do you agree that the film sequence of Bismarck firing included in the PG battle film was taken at a later period of time than the photo shown in question #2 ?"


Bye, Alberto
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Re: Some questions about the battle at the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:59 am

Fellow Contributors,

I stand by my observation:
There is no evidence in this still, that it was even taken at the Battle of the Denmark Straits.
and that is also true of the example photo Mr Rico provided. Once again it would be extremely valuable to have details of any contemporary annotation actually recorded on/with the prints at the Bundesarchiv, rather than captions written for use in "Im Ersten Gefecht". We know someone who has been there and seen the prints, and could provide this information.

However I do correct myself, since the turrets are all-over grey as repainted in Kors Fjord on 21st May 1941, there is a strong likelihood the photo was taken during the mission.

As we know the caption on the photo in Im Ersten Gefecht is at least partly incorrect in saying it is Bismarck's first salvo, when Prinz Eugen has already fired some shots, its identification in the caption as being at Denmark Straits is also questionable.

While we are concerned with evidence in the photo, would our photogrammetrist care to give an opinion as to whether the turrets are trained sufficiently forward of the beam to confirm having been taken early in the Denmark Straits action? By my measurement on the gefechtskizze they need to be pointing about 25 degrees forward of the beam, plus deflection to allow for target movement during shell flight. I note the Hipper class seem to have rounded rear turret faces on the superfiring turrets, but on the lower turrets, one rear face parallel to the front with two side panels at an angle on the rear side.

All the best
wadinga
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Re: Some questions about the battle at the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:20 pm

Hello everybody,
" We know someone who has been there and seen the prints, and could provide this information....would our photogrammetrist care to give an opinion as to whether the turrets are trained sufficiently forward....?"
Possibly, but only if the ones who have forced him to leave the forum forever will be willing (presenting excuses) to convince him to come back.
Else someone will need to learn how to do the job himself...



The obstinacy to insinuate (without any supporting evidence) that the photo #2 is not from the DS action speaks for itself.

I think I remember that this is an old discussion with some people (including Vic Dale viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2523&start=30#p25911, viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2523&start=45#p25955 ) tried to say the same thing, speaking of another ship than PG, and that they were proven wrong, with the concurrency of the ones now speaking of "indeterminateness" and speaking captions only when it's convenient (like for the one with the PoW local salvo)....
I suggest to have a look also at this old thread (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=273#p1882)


Bye, Alberto
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"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Some questions about the battle at the Denmark Strait

Post by José M. Rico » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:43 pm

OK guys let's not begin to divert the conversation.
Your points are taken.

Next question:

Question #4.
Do you agree that the three smoke puffs shown in this photo originate from Bismarck's secondary battery?

YES
NO

Image

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Re: Some questions about the battle at the Denmark Strait

Post by José M. Rico » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:01 pm

wadinga wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:59 am
However I do correct myself, since the turrets are all-over grey as repainted in Kors Fjord on 21st May 1941, there is a strong likelihood the photo was taken during the mission.
Sorry, I hadn't seen this.
IF you accept that photo #2 was taken during Rheinübung, what action could that be other than the battle at the Denmark Strait?

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Re: Some questions about the battle at the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:27 pm

#4 Yes
Regards

Marc

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Re: Some questions about the battle at the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:57 pm

Hello everybody,

my answer to question #4 is yes. The three of them can be easily distinguished from the main armament smoke, looking at the film.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Some questions about the battle at the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:08 pm

Fellow Contributors,

Yes No 4 is secondary armament smoke.

Since it appears PG never fired her armament on first contact with the cruisers, or during the breakaway it seems likely that No 2 is Denmark Straits, however I am intrigued that the photogrammetrist questions whether the Bismarck smoke cloud is real.
For example, it would be easy to insert, for visual effect, the firing smoke cloud from Bismarck,
Looking at my copy of Im Erste Gefecht it is clear the featureless black blob suspiciously extends below the horizon line, and more than Bismarck's hull. Secondly the crewman wearing headphones in the right side of the photo is remarkably casual for someone who is supposed to be experiencing blast effects from the 8" gun muzzles a few metres to his right. Also there are no cartridge cases on this deck level as would have dropped from the rear of turret Caesar.

There is what appears to be a handwheel of the Ein LC 34 37mm gun, but the rest of the mount has "disappeared".
and the possibility of modifications to the images for publication purposes, renders it difficult to do more than assign a probability.
means this Yes or No and no "Maybe" allowed, is invalid for some questions

This photo (no 2) was the origin of the "three depth charges" query of many years ago. It shows three charges in the rack right aft. The other two pictures from roughly the same location and supposedly only a few minutes later show only one.



All the best

wadinga
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Re: Some questions about the battle at the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:25 pm

Hello everybody,

would rephrasing question #3 to:
"Assuming the photo is genuine and not retouched, do you agree that the film sequence of Bismarck firing included in the PG battle film was taken at a later period of time than the photo shown in question #2 ?

help some undecided "fellow contributors" to finally provide a yes/no answer, once all their doubts about the PG identification seem to have been addressed in older threads (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2523&start=45#p25955)?

Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some questions about the battle at the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:34 pm

José M. Rico wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:43 pm
OK guys let's not begin to divert the conversation.
Your points are taken.

Next question:

Question #4.
Do you agree that the three smoke puffs shown in this photo originate from Bismarck's secondary battery?

YES
NO

Image
Yes.

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