Hypothetical: The British detect Bismarck with a ship-borne Walrus at 0900 on 25 May 1941.

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Michael L
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Re: Hypothetical: The British detect Bismarck with a ship-borne Walrus at 0900 on 25 May 1941.

Post by Michael L »

Hello wadinga.
I too am enjoying the lively dialogue.
Circumstances were completely different so performance in that other fight is no indicator of what might happen here. Conversely it must be said Bismarck hit nothing at all in that other fight.
Hypothetically, circumstances would have been different. I sincerely think that the issue of crew moral and fatigue in Bismarck’s final battle needs to be acknowledged.
Bismarck had been detected again on 26 May. It was being shadowed by enemy aircraft. It was then being shadowed by an enemy light cruiser (HMS Sheffield). Bismarck was then ‘crippled’ by the Ark Royal’s Swordfish torpedo hit that had seriously damaged Bismarck’s rudder and had it traveling in the wrong direction. During the night of 26/27 May Vain’s destroyers harassed the Bismarck mercilessly – which was their task and they did it extremely well.
Night Shadowing and Attack by Destroyers.
72. SHEFFIELD made, her last enemy report at 2140 on 26th May. At this time the BISMARCK turned and fired six accurate 15-inch salvos at her, at a range of nine miles. SHEFFIELD turned away at full speed and made smoke, but suffered a few casualties from splinters. The turn caused her to lose touch, but shortly afterwards she made contact with the Captain (D), Fourth Destroyer Flotilla (Captain Philip L. Vian, D.S.O.), in COS SACK, who with MAORI, ZULU, SIKH and the Polish destroyer PIORUN, was approaching the BISMARCK. The Captain (D), Fourth Destroyer Flotilla, as I knew he would, had decided to shadow and attack the BISMARCK, …

74. Throughout the night and until 0845 on 27th May, when the battlefleet came into action, these destroyers maintained touch in spite of heavy seas, rain squalls and low visibility. They were frequently and accurately engaged by the main and secondary armaments of the BISMARCK, who was apparently firing by R.D.F.; but by skilful handling they avoided serious damage and suffered a very small number of casualties. The four ships of the 7th Division all delivered torpedo attacks during the night, COSSAQK and MAORI making two each; hits were scored by COSSACK and by MAORI, the latter's torpedo causing a fire on the forecastle of the BISMARCK; SIKH may also have scored a hit.
Tovey’s Despatch/Report dated 5 July 1941.

At dawn on 27 May, the Bismarck’s crew was fatigued and their moral must have been low. It is not surprising that “Bismarck hit nothing at all in that” final battle.

In a hypothetical encounter battle of 25 May between Bismarck and Rodney plus three destroyers, I respectfully submit that the Bismarck’s crew would have been nowhere near as fatigued. And their moral would have been high after the success of their encounter with Hood, PoW, Norfolk and Suffolk the day before. One of which they had sunk. And then Bismarck during the night had eluded the other three.

Notwithstanding Lütjens ‘death or glory’ speech, which met with a mixed response, IMHO the Bismarck’s Captain Lindemann would have sought to inspire the crew.

I agree that any course change by Bismarck would not have been desirable. But faced with an encounter battle with Rodney, I doubt Lütjens and Lindemann would have simply held their course and rushed at Rodney crossing their T. That would not have been tactically sound. Trying to get around Rodney was their best option, despite the delay this would cause, and allow other forces to get closer – i.e. Tovey, Somerville etc.

Please don’t misunderstand me. I am not saying that Bismarck would have scored a second stunning victory. I feel that Bismarck would have ultimatley been sunk in any hypothetical scenario. The historical manner of Bismarck’s demise was in fact at minimal cost to the Royal Navy - not withstanding the loss of Hood (and Mashona). It was a close-run thing, but in many respects the best outcome for Britain.

Had Bismarck been relocated by a Walrus around dawn on 25 May – the trigger for this Post – then one of the hypothetical encounter battles we have espoused in this Post is likely to have occurred on 25 May, deep in the Atlantic. If that had occurred, I respectfully submit that Bismarck, in a better state than it was at dawn on 27 May, would have exacted a price on the Royal Navy. Exactly what price is very much in the hypothetical realm.

Back to Rodney versus Bismarck. Rodney was actually on its way to America to undertake a refit. Not withstanding the damage it had sustained (impacting it's speed, not it's armament), Bismarck was brand new. Bismarck had R.D.F. IIRC Rodney received her Type 284 set in July 1941. There was over 10 years age difference between the two ships. If the two ships were boxers, my money would have been on Bismarck. :wink:

Kind regards, Michael L.
Michael L
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Re: Hypothetical: The British detect Bismarck with a ship-borne Walrus at 0900 on 25 May 1941.

Post by Michael L »

As an aside, I would like to pay tribute to the actions of the Polish ORP Piorun (Okręt Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej, "Warship of the Republic of Poland" "Thunderbolt"). I sincerely feel that Captain, Crew and Ship fought bravely, and in no small measure assisted Vain’s RN destroyers in harassing Bismarck during the night 26/27 May.
Michael L
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Re: Hypothetical: The British detect Bismarck with a ship-borne Walrus at 0900 on 25 May 1941.

Post by Michael L »

Dear Members,
Having discovered a Post for OPR Piorun, I have duplicated my comment on this ship there for any follow-up discussion.
https://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtop ... 051#p91051
Kind regards, Michael L.
paul.mercer
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Re: Hypothetical: The British detect Bismarck with a ship-borne Walrus at 0900 on 25 May 1941.

Post by paul.mercer »

back to Rodney versus Bismarck. Rodney was actually on its way to America to undertake a refit. Not withstanding the damage it had sustained (impacting it's speed, not it's armament), Bismarck was brand new. Bismarck had R.D.F. IIRC Rodney received her Type 284 set in July 1941. There was over 10 years age difference between the two ships. If the two ships were boxers, my money would have been on Bismarck.

If Bismarck could still steer, Lutyens would use his speed to leave Rodney behind, he would not risk engaging such a powerfully armed ship like Rodney.
Do have a look back at some of the older threads, I think we have analysed this scenario rather thoroughly before some years ago - it caused a lot of discussion!
Michael L
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Re: Hypothetical: The British detect Bismarck with a ship-borne Walrus at 0900 on 25 May 1941.

Post by Michael L »

Hello Mr Paul Mercer,
As you can see I am a new Member. Can you please provide me with link(s) to some of the 'older threads'.
Kind regards, Michael L.
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Re: Hypothetical: The British detect Bismarck with a ship-borne Walrus at 0900 on 25 May 1941.

Post by RF »

paul.mercer wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2023 4:42 pm

The facts are that had Bismarck not taken a hit in her rudder I don't think any of the RN ships would have got near her
I think that is the crux of the matter.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
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