closing up bismarck during daylight action

[chuckfan3@gmail.com]

Germans uses exterior deadlights for portholes had can be accessed from the outside. so the deadlights on the superstructure portholes needs to be modeled either open or closed. my question is would these deadlights on the bismarck be open or closed if the ship is operating in the atlantic during the day, but is not actually in sight of an RN ship or aircraft?

[Bill Jurens]

It appears that for whatever reasons, nobody is interested in tackling this. While I am not certain of the precise details of the portholes themselves -- i.e. I am not in the least suggesting I'm any kind of expert on the subject -- my suspicion would be that while at sea in wartime the metal external deadlights would always be closed. During the day, the deadlights would probably be raised, leaving a glass-porthole to let in light, but it's unlikely that many people would open the glass portholes, as it's usually pretty miserable out there. It's possible, but unlikely, that external deadlights might be left open at night, sealed by heavy black internal curtains, but these are kinda 'iffy' in terms of reliability, and those in command would probably want to just close the deadlights again. Not the best thing to allow escape from the compartment in case of fire, etc., but still preferable to perhaps someone leaving an airport uncurtained. If rolling is not severe, a compromise would be to close the external deadlight, but not screw it down.

I'm not sure there was any overall naval policy on this; my suspicion is that so long as light was not shown, details were left up to those in command, and may have varied from ship to ship, and quite possibly were different for officers and crew...

Comments welcome...

Bill Jurens

[wadinga]

Hi All,

Definitely concur with esteemed moderator. During this mission there was always the possibility of a breaking wave or aircraft strafing damaging unprotected glass, not to mention a forgotten deadlight allowing light out as a giveaway at night. Fresh air or natural daylight is an unnecessary luxury at sea. If the crew want fresh air and a view- well, they can go out on deck.

Having worked on a buttoned-up Norwegian survey ship in a Barents Sea winter, and being the one person onboard who didn't smoke like a chimney, I found I had to shuffle around on a snow-covered helideck for at least half an hour to get the filthy fug out of my brain and lungs.

All the best

wadinga

[chuckfan3@gmail.com]

regarding going on deck for fresh air, German warships seems to remove the chain or cable railings around the edge of the main deck before a sortie. So if the sea is rough the deck may be a dangerous place on which to take a stroll.

[wadinga]

Hi Chuckfan3,

There is a need to lower railings which might hinder or be damaged by weapons fire but they were left in place elsewhere. There are plenty of pictures of Prinz Eugen's crew taking the air on deck during the mission. I would suggest modelling the ship "closed up" for action.

All the best

wadinga

[chuckfan3@gmail.com]

Thanks to everyone.

I decided to build the model as if the ship was in safe waters. the main reason is it is a relatively large model (1/200 scale). at this scale, depicting the ship closed up has a deadening effect on the model’s appearance.

I will depict the ship with all scuttles and ventilator covers open, deck edge railings mounted, and boat boom and gangway deployed.

[chuckfan3@gmail.com]

I found a photo of the scharnhorst during operation berlin, apparently taken during a lull when the sisters were stopped or going dead slow while close abeam of each other in fairly calm seas.

in the photo, all the interior deadlights behind hull side scuttles were clearly closed. but the exterior deadlights on the superstructure seems to be mostly open. but the chain railing around weather deck edge were stowed.

[paul.mercer]

This is a little off topic, but presumably when being closed up for action all the watertight doors would be shut and most of the ship sealed off, so if Bismarck was scuttled surely at the end of the battle, surely this would make it even more difficult to sink her. I'm presuming that the watertight doors were electrically operated, but bearing in mind that the ship was being shot to pieces I would assume that most of the electrics would have been disabled and the remaining crew would not be able to open them.

[Steve Crandell]

I don't think any WT doors on naval vessels are or have ever been electrically operated. To my knowledge they are all hand operated. Certainly every ship I've visited was like that, as were all the submarines I served on. They all required a sailor to shut and dog them, and the same sailors could open them again unless they were jammed by damage to the ship.

[chuckfan3@gmail.com]

I think the condition in the interior of Bismarck’s hull was not as an apocalyptic as might be imagined during the British bombardment. The scuttling order was issued around 10;00am, and carried out around 10:20. The interior of the ship then filled almost completely by 10;40, as shown by the fact that no part of the main wreck seems to have imploded under water pressure after submergence.

This suggest the internal announcement and order transmission systems remained functional throughout the hull at least between 10-10:20, and the movement inside the hull remained largely unimpeded, so charges throughout the ship were properly set, and most watertight doors opened during that period. The fact that she filled almost completely and sank within 20 minutes shows the scuttling process must have been much more thorough than those carried out by the high seas fleet at Scapa Flow, when some of the German capital ships took 6 hours to sink after scuttling.

So my guess is while her superstructures were riddled, most of the spaces inside the hull remained intact and the conditions inside still permitted free movement, and lighting and public announcement circuits remained functional until at least 10;20, when scuttling charges fired,

[hans zurbriggen]

Hello,
I agree with Mr. Chuckfan3, we have witnesses (e.g. officer responsible of central shaft turbine room, Junack) stating that, inside Bismarck vitals, they had not even realized that the ship was doomed, with their machinery (center turbine turning "slow" as per last order), lights and communications still functioning, at least until scuttling order was given.

Only above MAD and battery deck Bismarck was a chaos of wrecks, with many crew members who had difficulties in getting out of hull due to hatches, doors and stairs destroyed/distorted.

hans

[Ona69]

To the best of my knowledge, no watertight doors on naval vessels have been or are electrically operated. From my experience, they have always been manually operated. Every ship I've visited, including the submarines I served on, required a sailor to close and secure them, and the same sailors could open them again unless they were obstructed due to damage to the ship.