Bismarck Myths

[wadinga]

Karl,

It really is no surprise PoW turned away. Leach was one of the few, deafened, stunned survivors from the Compass Platform slaughterhouse covered with the blood and brains and guts of his shipmates.

It is tempting to try to minimize this,

It is therefore not surprising there was some confusion as PoW slewed away from Bismarck at close to minimum fighting range. She had slewed towards Bismarck to avoid the wreck of Hood, then swung the other way to steady the range, but suddenly there was nobody functioning to countermand the rudder order to port. When the confusion died down, most of the heavy armament was out of action anyway so a shadowing brief was indicated.

Since the objective was to stop Lutjens, and the game was Total War, not TopTrumps there was no point in PoW re-engaging on her own if Tovey could join in and Bismarck be defeated with minimal further British casualties. Wake-Walker, Leach and Tovey were concerned only to kill Bismarck and Prinz Eugen before they happened on a flock of helpless merchant ships and did an SLS-64 on them. They were not interested in testing whether some piece of Vorsprung Durch Teknik produced in a Fascist dictator state wholly dedicated to producing Death via high technology and a brainwashed tribe of Aryan "Supermen" was "better" than a contemporary British design (which at least conformed to some of the Naval treaty Limitations) in some kind of chivalrous, fair, one-on-one duel.

This does not compare with Lutjen's actions off Stromvaer

more or less the same arguments that came with the Twins encounter with the British battlecruiser at Norway.

when he abandoned his role as cover for Bonte's destroyers and surviving transports, left them to be slaughtered without hinderance, and disappeared off to Iceland. This allowed the Allies to convoy in and land troops to drive the German invaders out of Narvik and virtually into Sweden. Lutjens was supposed to be protecting them too. Flottenchef Marschall was dismissed for supposedly not supporting land forces enough, but he hadn't run away to Iceland and yet Lutjens took his job. Well, when your face fits, you'll get accelerated promotion, a blind eye to your cock-ups and a personal birthday telegram from the Fuhrer!

The mythic quality of Bismarck's Death Ride is the surely the poignant harnessing of intellectual endeavour, technical excellence and youthful zeal by a dark corrupting evil for its perverted purposes. Of a stunning victory by a young, professional navy against one which had arrogantly dominated the seas for more than a century, but then followed after just a few days by the victorious crew, in their turn, being wiped out almost to a man, by the overwhelming vengence of their Nemesis. That vengence was only made possible at the very last moment, by an arrow fired straight into an Achillies' Heel. Truly a mighty Tragedy worthy of Greek Myth.

I read recently that one of the Fleet Air Arm's two Swordfish is back in flying condition after a major rebuild so next year's UK airshows will again feature a unique insight into some real heroes. Three men crouched in a fabric covered open air cockpit, pitted against a fire spitting mountain, somewhere over the storm tossed Atlantic! If they survived that trial, they had to find and land on a rocking and rolling tin box in the dark! And yet those heroes were fallible too, having attacked their "chummy ship" earlier in the day.

All the best

wadinga

[Karl Heidenreich]

Well, this turn into something else, something ideological. However I do not think Bismarck story has an ideological edge which is something I would not address.

Paul:

BUT during the resulting engagement it was Bismarck that turned away not PoW. When Bismarck attacked Suffolk, PoW opened fire in support of Suffolk and kept firing until Bismarck, the Prinz safely detached, turned away and headed west - away from Tovey.

Bismarck turned in order to shake the cruiser and it's radar. Lutjens target was, at all moments, to break into the Altantic and avoid combat. That's why he pardon PoW of utter destruction at DS and why he continued his southwesterly path. So, he turned briefly to try to destroy the shadowing cruiser and the intervention of PoW endagered not Bismarck but Lutjens determination of heading South West into the Atlantic free of any shadow. I don't see why Bismarck should avoid any combat, per se, with PoW, which at DS was hit six times in the span of two minutes whilst unable to produce a single hit then. Why should it be different?

The only REAL difference was made by the Swordfish attack. It was the Swordfish the element that changed the scenario. Even if KGV and Rodney have reached and tackled Bismarck, without the rudder damage, the outcome could have been very and dramatically different.

Cheers,

[paulcadogan]

Bismarck turned in order to shake the cruiser and it's radar. Lutjens target was, at all moments, to break into the Altantic and avoid combat. That's why he pardon PoW of utter destruction at DS and why he continued his southwesterly path. So, he turned briefly to try to destroy the shadowing cruiser and the intervention of PoW endagered not Bismarck but Lutjens determination of heading South West into the Atlantic free of any shadow. I don't see why Bismarck should avoid any combat, per se, with PoW, which at DS was hit six times in the span of two minutes whilst unable to produce a single hit then. Why should it be different?

Karl, I think you're merging two different events - the second engagement with PoW and the turn which allowed Bismarck's escape from Suffolk's radar. And please don't minimize the threat posed by PoW's guns. They hurt Bismarck in the DS and could do so again. Lutjens had no desire to slug it out with PoW if he didn't have to, just as PoW was not going to do it unless she had to. She had to defend Suffolk since if that ship was damaged or sunk, the whole pursuit would fall apart.

Here is the report of PoW's gunnery officer regarding the second action:

Events during the second action: 24th May. - Fire was opened at Bismarck at 1846 at a range of 30,300 yards. The table was tuned to ranges obtained from the fore D.C.T. rangefinder and "fine inclination spotting rules" were adopted, each double salvo being spread one unit apart. Salvoes 1 and 2 both fell right; salvoes 3 and 4 were fired as a further line bracket and both fell in line and short. UP 800 was ordered and salvoes 5 and 6 were fired spread one unit apart. Both these appeared in line and over; the range was then 33,000 yards and check fire was ordered. Prince of Wales then turned towards and opened fire again at 1853.5, with salvoes 7 and 8 fired as a deflection double with the table re-tuned to the fire D.C.T. rangefinder. "Y" turret was not bearing after salvo 6. Again, both these appeared right, and salvoes 9 and 10 were fired as a further line bracket. Both appeared in line and short; UP 800 was ordered and salvoes 11 and 12 were fired spread one unit apart; 11 was observed right and 12 over. Fire was then ordered to be checked by C.S.1 as the enemy turned away and there was a danger of forcing him westward.

It is understood that one of these salvoes was observed to "straddle" by Norfolk.

http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/off ... 09guns.htm

Note: PoW "turned towards" not away. Bismarck turned away because the Prinz Eugen was safely detached and she was under fire from an enemy battleship. There was no need to risk herself further even though the extreme range made scoring a hit unlikely. She made off westwards before resuming her southerly course alone.

Here's PoW's report of the third exchange of fire:

Events during the third action: 25th May. - One double salvo was fired at 0131 at a range of 20,000 yards at an enemy ship which might have been Bismarck or Prinz Eugen. A good R.D.F. range was obtained but the target was then lost in funnel smoke and mist and fire could not be continued.

It is possible that a hit was obtained from these two salvoes as in addition to enemy gun flashes, a different type of explosion was seen at the same time as shots were due to fall. The splashes of our own salvoes were not seen due to the visibility.

What I'm going to all these lengths to show is that your statement:

"We also have PoW actions after DS when shadowing Bismarck with the two cruisers, always avoiding a surface action with Bismarck: closing a bit, firing a bit, and as soon Bismarck answered it went out of range. "

..is completely incorrect.

PoW WAS waiting on Tovey to ensure the best chance of destroying Bismarck. The odds were against her as the lone and already damaged capital ship, worse with her mechanical issues, so if help is near, wait for it. It was the prudent and correct strategy. And it would have worked were it not for Bismarck's clever escape....

Paul

[phil gollin]

.........Nevertheless the order was given in an explicit way. ..............

As Wadinga pointed out, it was a specific order to a specific ship - a Battlecruiser - not what you wrote at all.

Making silly claims merely highlights the mythic aspects.

.

[Karl Heidenreich]

I am about to take a plane but will refer later on this issues.

Paul,

I do not doubt that PoW will, eventually, engage Bismarck in order to destroy her. But my point it will do it only when numerical superiority was achieved.

Regards,



Karl

[paul.mercer]

The only REAL difference was made by the Swordfish attack. It was the Swordfish the element that changed the scenario. Even if KGV and Rodney have reached and tackled Bismarck, without the rudder damage, the outcome could have been very and dramatically different.

Gentlemen,
I'm not sure that it would if it came to a battle, two heavily armed battleships against one even one as good as Bismarck is daunting odds to say the least. Had Bismarcks rudder not been damaged she would have undoubtedly used her superior speed to avoid combat as no doubt she would have done had she come accoss Rodney on her way to Brest. Think about it, your ship is damaged, are you going to engage a powerful enemy if you don't have to? This is precisely why he did not try to finish off PoW, with half the Home Fleet after her Bismarck could not risk further damage, as we saw with Hood and Pow's hit, it only takes one shell to do serious if not crippling damage.

[RF]

I'm not sure that it would if it came to a battle, two heavily armed battleships against one even one as good as Bismarck is daunting odds to say the least. Had Bismarcks rudder not been damaged she would have undoubtedly used her superior speed to avoid combat as no doubt she would have done had she come accoss Rodney on her way to Brest. Think about it, your ship is damaged, are you going to engage a powerful enemy if you don't have to? This is precisely why he did not try to finish off PoW, with half the Home Fleet after her Bismarck could not risk further damage, as we saw with Hood and Pow's hit, it only takes one shell to do serious if not crippling damage.

Remember that prior to the hit on the rudder Bismarck's speed was reduced anyway on account of its fuel situation. Had KGV managed to interdict itself between Bismarck and the French coast, there would have been a battle if Bismarck's escape route was blocked.....

[celticmarine10]

While the myths surrounding Bismarck are indeed myths, it cannot be denied that she (or he as Lindemann declared) was an extremely powerful vessel and Britain had a good deal to fear from her if she had broken unhindered into the Atlantic.

[RF]

Certainly true and no doubt why this website exists!

[celticmarine10]

While the myths surrounding Bismarck are indeed myths, it cannot be denied that she (or he as Lindemann declared) was an extremely powerful vessel and Britain had a good deal to fear from her if she had broken unhindered into the Atlantic.

Way for me to state the obvious!

[paul.mercer]

Bismarck was a great ship, probably the most powerful of her time and she took a lot of punishment before finally being sunk by a multitude shells and torpedoes, but apart from putting the fear of God into the British Admiralty about being let loose on convoys what did she actually achieve? She sank an elderly, badly protected battlecruiser and damaged a brand new battleship that had an inexperienced crew and most of her guns either out of action or giving serious problems.
Without wishing to restart the Bismarck versus KGv, Rodney or a fully operational PoW agument again I have no doubt she would have aquitted herself well against any comparable battleship but to my mind she was doomed from the start, sooner or later she would have been either hunted down by the overwhelming superiority in numbers of the British fleet or all her supply ships would have been destroyed leaving her with the option of running out of fuel or making for Home or a French port where she would have been bombed to bits like her sister.
Germany would have done far better if they had put all the money and materials from their battleships and battlecruisers into producing submarines.

[RF]

Germany would have done far better if they had put all the money and materials from their battleships and battlecruisers into producing submarines.

Which was basically Hitler's argument after the Battle of the Barents Sea, when he ordered the surface fleet to be obliterated. No, reliance on one weapon, whether it be submarines or a battleship, is a fundamental weakness, as it means that the opposition merely have to concentrate on dealing with only the one weapon. What is needed is a combination of weapons and arms working together to create the maximum number of threats. The only back up the Bismarck had was Prinz Eugen - had Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin plus far better Luftwaffe support been available the situation would have been very different.

[frontkampfer]

No, reliance on one weapon, whether it be submarines or a battleship, is a fundamental weakness, as it means that the opposition merely have to concentrate on dealing with only the one weapon. What is needed is a combination of weapons and arms working together to create the maximum number of threats.

RF,

Spot on! If you limit yourself to one type of weapon or mode of attack your opponent will adjust and it makes it easier for him to deal with you. I have seen many responses on this and other threads stating the the Germans should have concentrated on subs and combinations of cruisers. By attempting to break out into the Atlantic with capital ships they tied up huge british resources and that is part of the game is it not?

Thanks for saying it so succinctly!

[RF]

Tying up the British forces was exactly the ''Raider Concept'' that Raeder employed. The success of that strategy can be seen in the number of Allied ships required to search for the Graf Spee, the Scheer, and the Bismarck. The weakness for the Germans was in having these ships operate singly. A much stronger force, with its own carrier and air support was needed, and this essentially was the genesis of the Z Plan. A battle force strong enough to attack convoys, backed up with FW 200's and U-boats was what was needed. Then the RN could be destroyed by attrition - by a combination of arms all working together. Then an invasion of Britain becomes much less difficult.

In fact the Germans could have taken it further. It never occured to them that if Allied commandos could raid German targets, then they could organise and train their own commando and elite forces to raid targets in Britain, particulary the more remote bases such as Scapa Flow. Only the Italians thought of undertaking operations like that - such as the De La Penn chariot raid on Alexandria......

[frontkampfer]

RF,

Two for two - Bravo!