Virginia Tech

RF · Post by RF » Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:15 pm

Yet another gun culture massacre. What is really scary is that one of these days a nutter is going to let off a home made atomic bomb....

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:46 pm

Hi RF.

As a fellow Englishman I have to agree with you.
America DOES need to do something about its firearms.
We English made tighter Restrictions after Hungerford and then later Dunblane and touchwood I hope we wont have another similiar incident.

April 19th was the 14th anniversary of the end of the Waco seige.
It scared me (and it still does) that members of the public could stockpile such an arsenal of weapons that they were capable of forcing the ATF (alcohol, Tobago and Firearms) to retreat from a gun battle

I have nothing against America or its citiziens but this kind of mass slaughter has happened before on more than one occasion and I just cant help feeling that this wont be the last school massacre the US endures

I'm not "anti-gun", I've been to clay pigeon shooting events with a double barrel shotgun before but Why the hell does any member of the public need to own an semi-automatic rifle?

marcelo_malara · Post by **marcelo_malara** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:06 pm

Why the hell does any member of the public need to own an semi-automatic rifle?

There is no reason. Even for hunting a bolt action is more accurate.
A question to you guys that live in the UK, I have read that killing in self-defense is strictly forbbiden there, is this true?

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:18 pm

Hi Marcelo.

It has been done before and people have been jailed while others have been aquitted.
It depends on the circumstances.

Perhaps the case that stands out the most is of the farmer Tony Martin.
He was home alone at night when 2 guys broke in.
He opened fire with an illegally owned Pump action shotgun.
One of the intruders died whilst the other survived.
The guy who died had been shot in the back.
The fact he had been shot from behind and with an illegal weapon is probably what made the courts jail Tony Martin.
He served about 5 years but has since been released.

Getting back to US gun laws...........is it correct that if you own a semi-automatic rifle, you can buy a device to fit to the trigger that makes it capable of fully automatic fire?
Also, I believe the US does have strict legislation on hand guns but not rifles or shotguns

A rifle or shotgun will do more damage than any handgun I would think

But of course a handgun can be easily concealed where as larger weapons cannot.

Here in England you can own a semi-automatic shotgun but it must NOT hold more than 3 shells I believe.
Many Americans will disagree with me and think I'm a moaning Englishman but when you have millions of citiziens owning semi-automatic rifles it is a recipe for disaster in my book.

marcelo_malara · Post by **marcelo_malara** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:16 pm

Hi Gary:

Here in Argentina the Penal Code allows you to shoot on sight any stranger breaking into your home AT NIGHT, but not in daylight.

is it correct that if you own a semi-automatic rifle, you can buy a device to fit to the trigger that makes it capable of fully automatic fire?

There are some semiautos that can be converted back to full auto, but it is forbbiden. Others like the German civilian version of the HK33 have the frame modified in such a way that the full auto mechanism can not be incorporated. But anyway, I would personally choose to fire semiauto because of its greater accuracy.

I believe the US does have strict legislation on hand guns but not rifles or shotguns

Pistols with magazines carrying more than (I believe) 10 rounds were banned, but I don´t know what happened now that the assault rifle holidays is over.

Karl Heidenreich · Post by **Karl Heidenreich** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:35 pm

Hi.

Since I was a teenager I had guns: a Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum, a pump action Marine Stainless shotgun and between 1999 thru 2003 a semi automatic AR-15 assault rifle. With the exception of the warfare state between 1980 -1989 I had never fired against anything but a paper target. Nowadays I have no weapons because I can´t afford to have them, maybe I´ll buy a small "Saturday Night Special" in order to protect my family from burglars and such with the hope of not using it ever.
The issue is about culture and education. And it seems that in the US is time for people to restrain the use of firearms, maybe only the south border counties in order to protect themselves from the "coyotes" and the drug dealers that trespass it.
The problem, it seems to me, that those that have the weapons do not want to surrender them if the Goverment didn´t do something to strip the vandals and criminals from their ilegal and unregistered weapons first. Sincerely I´would not like to be stripped of my right of selfdefense if I´m not guaranteed that those that will attack me are not neutralized first.
So, in order to clean society of fireams the Goverment HAS to put in jail all those that are going to use ilegal and not registered small arms first and those weapons confiscated. Only then it´s practical and fair for the Goverment to come and take away your own weapon.

Well, my two political incorrect cents...

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:23 pm

Hi Marcelo.

Here in Argentina the Penal Code allows you to shoot on sight any stranger breaking into your home AT NIGHT, but not in daylight

I bet lawyers will love that

How dark does it have to be to be classed as "night"?
Thats how lawyers think.

I do agree that you should be allowed to shoot intruders in self defense.

What I do not agree with is that citiziens in the states can own semi-automatic rifles.
Like I said, the firepower that Koresh and his followers had at Waco was scary.

marcelo_malara · Post by **marcelo_malara** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:42 am

How dark does it have to be to be classed as "night"?

Hi Gary:

The Penal Code writing goes back to the 1870s I think, so I don´t think anybody had thought about that then!!!
Until 1994 you could buy a semiauto assault rifle here too, the difference with the US being that you had to get a firearms user license before, demonstrating you have a legal mean of life, you don´t have penal records, you are not crazy and you can properly handle and fire a weapon. Then the 1994 assault rifle ban in the US came here too, but as the holidays ended in US, here the ban remained. So you can´t buy them now, but those who already own them can keep.

Abram Joslin · Post by **Abram Joslin** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:25 am

Gary wrote:
As a fellow Englishman I have to agree with you.
America DOES need to do something about its firearms.
We English made tighter Restrictions after Hungerford and then later Dunblane and touchwood I hope we wont have another similiar incident.

Unfortunately with the way our country is and the people in it, tighter restrictions would me more problems. Remember prohibition, there was more alcohol traffic than there was without prohibition. It's just the way people are here in America, don't ask me why, I don't know!

I don't think so many people here actually own a semi-automatic rifle like you think, and having a fully automatic rifle here is infact illegal, atleast it was last time I checked, either illegal or you needed a special permit that is almost impossible to get.

Here in Arizona where I live there is a law entitled "The Make My Day Law", where you can shoot someone if they have broken into your home or in self defense, but you're best off shooting to kill, because if they live they can testify against you in court and could win. (A person was sued by someone breaking into their home because the burglar got cut on broken glass from the window he broke and WON! welcome to America

)

RF · Post by RF » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:19 am

In response to Marcello and Gary, the legal position in England and Wales (but not Scotland and Northern Ireland, which have their own different legal processes) is that you can under what is known as ''common law'' (ie. law based on centuries old custom predating laws made by parliament) kill another person lawfully if it is the only way to save your own life, ie. by killing the person threatening your own life. Hence in wartime you can lawfully kill an enemy soldier.

Tony Martin could not prove that his action was in a life threatening situation, so he was rightfully convicted.
This law is quite quaint - you can't kill a knifeman with a gun, but you can with a knife etc.

RF · Post by RF » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:24 am

Gary wrote:Hi RF.

As a fellow Englishman I have to agree with you.
America DOES need to do something about its firearms.

Changing America's gun laws won't make any difference, as the UK experience demonstrates that virtually all gun crime is through the use of illegally held weapons.

This was particulary so in Northern Ireland. Even today the paramilitaries are still armed to the teeth, even after the farce of ''decommissioning.''

RF · Post by RF » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:32 am

Gary wrote:
I do agree that you should be allowed to shoot intruders in self defense.

Gary, the lawyers will love that one as well.

Taken literally, if a Jehovah's Witness knocks on your door would you be allowed to shoot them because they are verbally assaulting you with religion?

There was a case in Louisiana a few years ago where a Witness was shot 18 times on a resident's doorstep. The resident was acquited of murder, he pleaded he was defending his property....

marcelo_malara · Post by **marcelo_malara** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:36 pm

You can shoot at night anyone, as I said. In daylight, or in the street, the agressor must have a reasonable mean of killing for his death to be considered self defense. It is a little subjective, but a knife is considered a mean of killing, a professional boxer´s fist may be considered a mean of killing too, a three member unarmed gang too. Finally, it´s up to the judge to decide if the attacker´s death was justified.

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:07 pm

Intresting discussion here guys.

I do agree and think that trying to restrict gun laws in America would be like trying to ban Premier league football here in England - people just would not stand for it.

One thing we English do that America does not is allow people to own 8 bore (guage) shotguns.
These are basically meant for safari and one blast can stop a lion in its tracks.
America doesnt allow any larger than 10 bore I believe.

marcelo_malara · Post by **marcelo_malara** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:03 pm

Anyway an 8 bore is overkilling for humans.