June 18th: anniversary

[Karl Heidenreich]

In less than 12 days there comes another quite important anniversary:

WATERLOO!!!

192 years ago happened the great decisive battle that free Europe from the corsican dictator and that reinforced the British Tradition of Victory. Lord Wellington did a pretty good job considering he had numerical and "genius" disadvantage.

There are a series of historical novels that are worth reading called "Sharpe". It´s like Lord Hornblower or Lucky Jack Audrey but set in the european land warfare and consecutive victories of the British over the french.

Like Lepanto, Trafalgar, Stalingrad, Kursk and Midway it´s one of the DECISIVE battles in history that shaped our world and led to the expansion of democracy and good will around the globe.

For the brave British Grenadiers that gave their lives in order to protect King and Country: Rest in Peace Brave Souls! Your sons, too, had done well and kept their honor in the battlefields around the globe, even in 2007.

[iankw]

Whilst I share your sentiments about the battle Karl I do have to put the record straight on one thing. British troops made up less than half of Wellington's army, and that doesn't include the Prussians who made sure of the result. At that time Britain still had a small, professional army (of which many 1st battalions were overseas and unavailable to Wellington), and preferred to pay other nations to provide troops.

Still a great battle and one which I am currently fighting on my pc. Unfortunately I have to play the AI since human opponents are hard to find.

Ian

[RF]

One other aspect of Waterloo, often overlooked, is that it is in Belguim, and also saw some of the decisive final actions of the 1944 Battle of the Bulge.

Regarding the 1815 battle itself, I don't think that it necessarily shows the Duke of Wellington in a particulary good light and I don't rate him as a gereral. Before Blucher actually arrived at the battle Napoleon was marginally ahead....

In the peace settlement of 1815 the Dutch were confirmed as rulers of Belguim, which finally became independent in 1830. To stop the French from annexing it the British had to guarantee the independence and neutrality of Belguim, which worked in the 1870 Franco-Prussian war failing which the French probably would have marched into the Rhineland through Belguim. What the British didn't forsee was that the guarantee was to work against their former Prussian allies.....

[RF]

Like Lepanto, Trafalgar, Stalingrad, Kursk and Midway it´s one of the DECISIVE battles in history that shaped our world and led to the expansion of democracy and good will around the globe.

Not necessarily. Its main achievement was to elimate French military domination of continental Europe such that for 99 years there was no major European conflict. Yes, there was the Franco-Prussian War, but its main effect was to further eclipse France as a military power.

Expansion of democracy - well the French kings retained much of the Naploeonic system of Government, systems which continue today and which are being imposed on Britain by the EU, such that our yards are finding themselves being stealthily replaced by French Republican metres....

The Napoleonic system of government and law was also adpoted by Prussia and carried on into Hohenzollern, Weimar, Nazi and finally federal Germany....

[Karl Heidenreich]

RF:

In many things I agree with you but I don´t in what regards as the effects of the Battle. If by some disgrace Napoleon would have won the effects upon Europe and the development of democratic and free market policies which Great Britain exploited and test after 1815 would have changed and our world today may have been quite different... and not for good. Remember the hipocrecy that the French had in that moment because Napoleon rose from the ashes of the monarchy in order to stablish order in a People´s Revolution. Not muh time after he declared himself an Emperor.
As with Russia in the XX Century it was not a matter of being monarchic, revolutionary or whatever: the french wanted Europe as Russia wanted the world. The British stoped them cold in 1815.

iankw:
I know that the British forces were only half the "allied" forces at Waterloo. But if not for that half all the allied lock would have been destroyed. I doubt that the nobles from Netherlands or Belgium would have stand long the first punches of the Napoleonic army not being that the British were present.
Blucher is, as a prussian, an object of my sincere admiration, and his deed to regroup, march and attack at Waterloo is a proof of military proficiency. No doubt.
But it was Wellington the one that stood a complete day of offensive warfare from Napoleon´s forces. It were the British squares those that defeat the cavalry charges and were British forces the ones that defended the famous farms between the armies.

Wellington´s victories don´t begin or end with Waterloo but they came from the very difficult warfare at Spain were he distinguised himself. Maybe he was not genius but no one proclaimed him to be. Napoleon dis proclaim his own genius which was verified in 1812 in Russia.
Anyway, Wellingon won the day and changed history forever. Nowadays people can sing God save the Queen instead of the Marselliese.

[iankw]

Indeed so Karl, I can't disagree with you, I was merely pointing out a fact. As for generalship I rate both Wellington and Napoleon but, on the day, Napoleon was certainly not his usual self. His decision to leave Soult in Paris, and to give the cavalry to Ney was a disaster, similarly with giving Grouchy the 30000 men that might have turned the battle. Popular history says that the Prussians saved the day, and they certainly ensured that Napoleon's fall was complete (might have been diferent if Soult hadn't been left to undermine him in his absence). However, I am not convinced. Before the Prussians arrived the French right had been thrown into disarray, the left was still embroiled in Hougomont and Ney had destroyed the cavalry.

Unlike previous battles, where the Guard had not actually been used before the issue was decided, Napoleon was forced to send them in to try and get a result. The result? Well, for the first time the Guard were stopped in their tracks. The shockwave was felt along the entire line. A general advance at that time might well have seen a French retreat. Admittedly it would not have been the rout that the Prussian presence ensured but, I believe, the battle was there for the winning. Not one of Napoleon's best days and I often wonder why - some hsitorians have hinted that he was not well on that day. I wonder.

Karl, I share your admiration for Blucher. To keep a promise made days earlier, after suffering falling under his horse, and against the advice of his advisors (who had reason to believe Wellington would betray them), was nothing short of miraculous. We could do with some like him today.

regards

Ian

[Karl Heidenreich]

iankw:

always a pleasure to discuss military history with you.

Best regards.

[iankw]

Likewise Karl.

regards

[Terje Langoy]

Hello, Karl and Iankw.

Another military genious which I think should be paid attention in here besides Blücher and Wellington would be August Wilhelm Neithardt von Gneisenau. I recall having read that sometime before the battle of Waterloo, General Blücher rushed into the office of Captain Harding at Wavre, saying: "Gneisenau has given way and we are to march at once to your chief"

After Gneisenau stood alone and was defeated in the Battle of Ligny, he mistrusted his British allies but from the phrase above, he would still come around to save the day.

Best regards

[RF]

Gneisenau was of course a symbol of the recovery of Prussian military power, hence the tradition of naming warships after him, ironically symbolising the rebirth of German naval power.....

Karl, I think that if Napoleon had won at Waterloo, that would not be the end of the matter - the war would simply be prolonged and I can't see the French prevailing. It is rather like saying that if Rommel had his way on June 6 1944 and the D-Day landings were utterly wiped out that Hitler would have won WW2....
Another point is that Napoleon by 1815 didn't have many more years to live (he actually died in 1821), so in a victorious France who would succeed him and hold the French together?
If the war dragged on into 1816 and beyond it is likely that Prussia, Bavaria and the north German states would have united into Germany there and then, not leaving it to 1871, Germany ultimately winning on land with Britain supreme at sea.

Eventually you come back to something that resembles the actual outcome into the ninieteenth century.....