I've run across a small dilemma and could use some assistance. I had in mind the device situated at the small platform below the Admiral's Bridge aboard the Gneisenau. I've found a source titling this device as Kl. E. Messer. The interpretation of this would to me become something like Kleine Entfernungsmesser. Is this correct? In case of a yes, did she have more than this one and if so, where on the ship?
...and another thing, before I forget. During 21 May 1938, the Gneisenau flew two flags which had me curious to their meaning. One of them was white with a black border and a black cross in the middle. The other had a black diagonal line on a coloured background which perhaps could have been red. At the time she flew these, she also flew a merchant nayv flag at her bow. (Circle with swastika on red background) Does anyone know the meaning of these two flags..?
Kind regards
Abbreviation
-
Terje Langoy
- Supporter
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:15 pm
- Location: Bergen, Norway
-
Dave Saxton
- Supporter
- Posts: 3148
- Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:02 pm
- Location: Rocky Mountains USA
Hi Terje,
I don't know about the flags, but I think the abbreviation is most likely refering to a E-Messanzeige or a what is sometimes refered to a E-Messung in the context of the Wurzburg radars. These were gauges that displayed the range to target as determined by the radars. The GEMA Seetakt radars could measure distance to a select target eletronically and display this on a gauge. The data could be be automatically transferred electronically to slave guages anywhere else found convenient, or wanted. These were somtimes just called: "EM"'s. The fine range data could also be input directly to the fire control equipment via selsyns or "servo-gebers". Thus the radar operator didn't have to estimate the range from the time base on a CRT and then phone in his guess.
I don't know about the flags, but I think the abbreviation is most likely refering to a E-Messanzeige or a what is sometimes refered to a E-Messung in the context of the Wurzburg radars. These were gauges that displayed the range to target as determined by the radars. The GEMA Seetakt radars could measure distance to a select target eletronically and display this on a gauge. The data could be be automatically transferred electronically to slave guages anywhere else found convenient, or wanted. These were somtimes just called: "EM"'s. The fine range data could also be input directly to the fire control equipment via selsyns or "servo-gebers". Thus the radar operator didn't have to estimate the range from the time base on a CRT and then phone in his guess.
The Kl. E-Messer on the Oberes Mastdeck, which was located one level below the Admiral's Bridge, was a small rangefinder used for night actions. Prior to the war this was an open range finder mounting. During the war it was given a protective hood for the crew.
As far as the flags go, red flag with the white central ball and swastika was the Kriegsmarine naval jack, if flown from the bow jack staff. The same flag was used for Merchant Marine, except for those vessels which were commanded by naval reserve officers, in which case the flag had an addition of a small iron cross in the upper staff canton.
As for the two other flags, the one with a diagonal black line could have been the signal flag 'Rot' or red. The other one, with a dark border and dark cross in the middle is something of a mystery, as I do not recall a signal flag with that configuration. K (Kurfurst) had a blue cross on a white field, but no border.
It would be helpful to have a link to the photo so we can take a look for ourselves.
As far as the flags go, red flag with the white central ball and swastika was the Kriegsmarine naval jack, if flown from the bow jack staff. The same flag was used for Merchant Marine, except for those vessels which were commanded by naval reserve officers, in which case the flag had an addition of a small iron cross in the upper staff canton.
As for the two other flags, the one with a diagonal black line could have been the signal flag 'Rot' or red. The other one, with a dark border and dark cross in the middle is something of a mystery, as I do not recall a signal flag with that configuration. K (Kurfurst) had a blue cross on a white field, but no border.
It would be helpful to have a link to the photo so we can take a look for ourselves.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood and Earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned these defended;
And saved the sum of things for pay.
-
Dave Saxton
- Supporter
- Posts: 3148
- Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:02 pm
- Location: Rocky Mountains USA
Ah okay. Thomas is obviously correct. There were several diffrent E-messgerate devices that an E-mess abreviation could be used for. There were the various optical equipment ( as correctly applied by Thomas to this case), and the radar data link devices mentioned above. Additionally, EM-I was used in house by GEMA for sonar, and EM-II for radar, until this was forbidden in 1936. EM-I & II ...ect...were also used aboard ship to differentiate between range data obtained from optical methods and electronic methods during the war.
-
Terje Langoy
- Supporter
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:15 pm
- Location: Bergen, Norway
I must apologize for my late reply, guys. Yesterday had me quite busy, so to say. First of all, thanks for the assistance and competence from you both. It is brilliant as always. I'll move on to the Radar equipment of the Gneisenau sooner or later, Dave, and suspect you're the man with the answers on that topic. And thanks for your info as well, Thomas. Apparently I had the interpretation right this time. A few more questions though. With relation to night action, was this post servo-linked with the the searchlight directors (Synchron Richtgeräte) at the bridge? Was it a range finder strictly for the secondary or did it include tertiary armament as well? Finally, were there any other similar devices located somewhere at her aft superstructure as well?
It would be hard to provide a link to the flags, Thomas, as I found the photo with these flags in the very first pages of "Die Schlachtschiffe der Scharnhorst-Klasse" (Marine Arsenal band 24 - Siegfried Breyer) I did suspect the signal flag Rot at first but hesitated due to the direction of the diagonal line. It's just a matter of perspective and I think now I saw it from the backside and failed to draw the right conclusions. As far as the other flag go, I had an idea that it could have been a shipyard flag. The Gneisenau had the merchant marine flag at her bow jack staff and I did not see the commander's pennant anywhere suggesting she had not yet entered commission. Could it be I've mistaken the DW figure for a cross?
Anyway, the day was allegedly 21 May 1938 so what would the signal-flag Rot mean in this context..?
It would be hard to provide a link to the flags, Thomas, as I found the photo with these flags in the very first pages of "Die Schlachtschiffe der Scharnhorst-Klasse" (Marine Arsenal band 24 - Siegfried Breyer) I did suspect the signal flag Rot at first but hesitated due to the direction of the diagonal line. It's just a matter of perspective and I think now I saw it from the backside and failed to draw the right conclusions. As far as the other flag go, I had an idea that it could have been a shipyard flag. The Gneisenau had the merchant marine flag at her bow jack staff and I did not see the commander's pennant anywhere suggesting she had not yet entered commission. Could it be I've mistaken the DW figure for a cross?
Anyway, the day was allegedly 21 May 1938 so what would the signal-flag Rot mean in this context..?
Rot could mean just about anything. One would have to have a copy of the signal book in use at the time.
As far as the range finder goes, this was the only night range finder installed and was linked with the fire control system along with the searchlight directors and night target directors in the fore and aft night action stations. It was stabilized for azimuth and height, along with other instruments and directors, by the ship's Hw-Rw-geber It could provide ranges for any of the ship's batteries. The placement was not ideal as it could not bear very far aft of the beam leaving the after command post to use hand held range finders or the range finder on the after director tower.
As far as the range finder goes, this was the only night range finder installed and was linked with the fire control system along with the searchlight directors and night target directors in the fore and aft night action stations. It was stabilized for azimuth and height, along with other instruments and directors, by the ship's Hw-Rw-geber It could provide ranges for any of the ship's batteries. The placement was not ideal as it could not bear very far aft of the beam leaving the after command post to use hand held range finders or the range finder on the after director tower.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood and Earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned these defended;
And saved the sum of things for pay.
-
Terje Langoy
- Supporter
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:15 pm
- Location: Bergen, Norway
-
José M. Rico
- Administrator
- Posts: 1008
- Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:23 am
- Location: Madrid, Spain
- Contact:
-
Terje Langoy
- Supporter
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:15 pm
- Location: Bergen, Norway
Aiaiai.. 
Well, I'm more than interested. If a copy is not available then I would be very, very grateful if the meaning of the signal stated above, signal flag Rot inside of a possible shipyard flag, could be provided. They were flown at the port side right next to the foretop platform (Artillerieleitstand) on the command tower.
Well, I'm more than interested. If a copy is not available then I would be very, very grateful if the meaning of the signal stated above, signal flag Rot inside of a possible shipyard flag, could be provided. They were flown at the port side right next to the foretop platform (Artillerieleitstand) on the command tower.