Russian (Soviet?) war on Georgia

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Karl Heidenreich
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Russian (Soviet?) war on Georgia

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:40 pm

Hey guys,

It seems to me that Georgian attempt to seize Oestia simply backfired and they got badly kicked. On the other hand NATO gave proof that it´s not the military alliance of the Cold War.

Best regards.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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lwd
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Re: Russian (Soviet?) war on Georgia

Post by lwd » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:37 pm

Well South Oestia is (was?) part of Georgia so reaserting control is probably a better statement than siezing.

Since Georgia was not part of NATO there was no mandate to counter with military force and given the speed of events it's not clear what action NATO could or should have taken.

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Re: Russian (Soviet?) war on Georgia

Post by Bgile » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:07 pm

IMO we are helpless and the Russians can pretty much do what they want.

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Re: Russian (Soviet?) war on Georgia

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:19 pm

I´m not going to judge who is right and who is wrong, but just for the plain looker somehow the Georgians miscalculated the Russian response and their "expected allies" backing. As many before them the Georgians underestimated russian resolve and numerical superiority and got entangled in their own trap without any definite help from no one. Very sad. And NATO was wise enough not to get itself military involved (well, they neither intervened at Kosovo until the US went first and fought) because they could have gotten a little heat from seasoned warriors (maybe with inferior tech resources, but it´s not the first time the russians overcome enemies technologicaly superior to them).
The geo political map of the world is evolving, this time against the West: Iran is doing whatever it likes and no one is doing anything that matters to stop them; the Russians are testing the western resolve with good results (for Ivan); China is expending every year more money (given by the West, ironically) in weapons and in it´s huge army; Barak Obama is going to win the polls in the US and it will pull out the troops from Irak without defeating Al Qaeda or defeating no one for that case, and NATO is an empty shell. Not good prospect, not at all. Being myself a pro westerner I do see this scenario and it´s like reading Tolkien´s Lord of the Rings when the heroes comment about their West and how it declines without anyone doing a bit to save the situation until it´s too late.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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Re: Russian (Soviet?) war on Georgia

Post by Bgile » Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:14 pm

Iraq had nothing to do with Al Qaeda until we invaded it.

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Re: Russian (Soviet?) war on Georgia

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:35 pm

Bgile:
Iraq had nothing to do with Al Qaeda until we invaded it.
Right. But still when the US pulls the troops out (which is going to happen anyway because Obama is going to win) it will be seen and percieved as a defeat because Al Qaeda will be operating and Osama alive and at the helm. Many will see that as weakness (because it is weakness) as Chaves in Venezuela, that mad guy in Iran, Morales in Bolivia and every single islamic vermin terrorist around the world. And of course, those that really mattered in the end: China and Russia.
Just see what happened to the Roman Empire, still great it was brought down by those that were considered inferior.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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Re: Russian (Soviet?) war on Georgia

Post by RF » Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:08 am

I don't really see what Georgia has to do with NATO, it is nowhere nearthe North Atlantic, as neither is Afghanistan.

As for AL Qaeda involvement in Iraq, rather like the WMD there is a great deal that we have not been told publicly and I am inclined to think there is more substance to this than the CIA are prepared to disclose.
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Re: Russian (Soviet?) war on Georgia

Post by RF » Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:12 am

Karl Heidenreich wrote:
...... Obama is going to win......
He hasn't won yet. And remember how Carter was the big favourite in 1976 - and only just scraped in......
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Re: Russian (Soviet?) war on Georgia

Post by iankw » Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:46 am

I agree with much of what you first wrote Karl (shock, horror), but not the Al Qaeda bit, which you seem to have taken on board. However I think it goes deeper than that. I was initially in favour of the invasion (that's what it was) or Iraq, for maybe 24 hours, when all the fireworks were going off. It was around then that I heard a well respected analyst (who's name completely escapes me!!). His analysis of the situation was that the attack on Iraq had actually taken the pressure OFF of Al Qaeda, and given them time to regroup (they have certainly been more active since). Al Qaeda were persona non grata in Iraq, apparently, because the ruling elite were the other type of muslim. So, for all that Saddam was very unpleasant to sections of his people he was not a terrorist, nor did he appear to sponsor them. I cannot believe that this wasn't known by Dubya, so I have to wonder what the reasoning behind it was. Whatever it was I am left with the depressing conclusion that we will leave a far worse situation than the one that existed previously. Maybe we in the west need to accept the fact that some peoples are not suited to democracy, preferring their particular, traditional method of rule. Perhaps we might also acknowledge that, ruthless dictator that he was, Saddam knew how to control a troublesome people (note we haven't stormed into Uganda yet).

Although I have been known to lean to the left of centre this opinion owes nothing to my politics, rather from the observation that we may just have made the World a far more dangerous place than it was previously, and that worries me. I see Afganistan as a totally different case by the way.

regards

Ian

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Re: Russian (Soviet?) war on Georgia

Post by lwd » Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:31 am

The war in Iraq has nearly destroyed Al Quada.

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Re: Russian (Soviet?) war on Georgia

Post by Bgile » Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:30 am

lwd wrote:The war in Iraq has nearly destroyed Al Quada.
The war in Iraq has nearly destroyed the US economy and left us with no strategic reserve at all.

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Re: Russian (Soviet?) war on Georgia

Post by RF » Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:58 am

iankw wrote:.....I heard a well respected analyst (who's name completely escapes me!!). His analysis of the situation was that the attack on Iraq had actually taken the pressure OFF of Al Qaeda, and given them time to regroup (they have certainly been more active since). Al Qaeda were persona non grata in Iraq, apparently, because the ruling elite were the other type of muslim. So, for all that Saddam was very unpleasant to sections of his people he was not a terrorist, nor did he appear to sponsor them.

Ian
It doesn't mean that this analyst was or is right.

On what basis would it take the pressure off Al Qaeda? The ''war on terror '' focusses on them as well as Iraq.

From evidence I have seen (not given much publicity even by the US) Al Qaeda was in Iraq, did co-operate to a limited extent with the Ba'athist regime (when it mutually suited them) while also co-operatring with various opposition groups. Rather like the relationship between Hitler and Stalin - who supposedly hated each other so much they had a non-aggression pact and buried the hatchet in Poland.
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Re: Russian (Soviet?) war on Georgia

Post by RF » Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:02 am

Bgile wrote:
The war in Iraq has nearly destroyed the US economy and left us with no strategic reserve at all.
This is hyperbole. Since when has the US ceased to be the world's number one economy?

Wars boost the economy and Bush was facing recession - it was a nice little economy booster and job creator, just in time for re-election year, and that time he actually did get more votes than his Democrat rival.
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Re: Russian (Soviet?) war on Georgia

Post by RF » Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:04 am

lwd wrote:The war in Iraq has nearly destroyed Al Quada.
Unfortunately not. Damaged yes, destroyed no.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Re: Russian (Soviet?) war on Georgia

Post by iankw » Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:31 am

"On what basis would it take the pressure off Al Qaeda? "

By taking resources away from the war on terror for one. I would imagine that now Iraq is a base for terrorist groups there is a lot more activity to try and keep track of - that is just a random thought, not based on any other information I have. I guess we are never going to agree on this one, but do you not feel the World is a more dangerous place than it was prior to the invasion?

regards

Ian

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