Are the bad guys on the move again?

Anything else you want to talk about.
Vic Dale
Senior Member
Posts: 903
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:53 pm

Re: Are the bad guys on the move again?

Postby Vic Dale » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:02 am

You cannot tar Lenin and Trostky, or Marx for that matter with the a same brush as Stalin or Mao.

Lenin and Trotsky conducted a revolution and directed workers as their elected and accepted leaders with the authority of any leading state official and were able to give orders backed up witha death sentence if they were not carried out. That just 12 people died on the day of the revolution as a result of direct action is remarkable and even more so when it is discovered that half of those who died were due to the accidental discharge of weapons.

There were no gulags or execution sheds in Lenin's regime, but when invading armies came storming into the country to link arms with the rich landed peasants (The Kolchaks) and the czar's old generals and admirals, a desperate situation developed.

The armed force being directed against the revolution was such that defeat looked inevitable. A mark of the desperation lay in the fact that Lenin told Trotsky to organise the Red Army. Trotsky had no military experience and said so. Lenin replied if not you then who? Trotsky took the job with plenty of misgivings and began the tsak of organising what until recently had been a mutinous and disorganised mob.

Whilst Trotsky was busy with the army, other members of the Revolutionary Coucil were making plans to supply arms, to get factories making arms and to ensure food supplies. A resolution was passed forbiding the hoarding of food and the declaration was sent out to all factories and farms and in the cities it was accepted as a mark of the desperate situation. Of course the Kolchaks tried to get round this order thinking at best to simply get the best price for their grain, and at worst destroyed their crops with the intent of denying the Red Army food, in order to starve it and hasten defeat.

Desperate times require desperate measures and anyone caught destroying food in a country which was still starving deserved to lose their life. I am not a violent man and oppose the death penalty, but I would gladly have given the order to the firing squads. If you consider what the reaction would have been, if in 1985 when Ethiopia was seen by the world to be starving and it was discovered that land-owners were burning their crops rather than feed the needy, I think some of our liberal gentlemen and ladies who sniff at Lenin's determination would have gladly seen those destroying food shot on sight.

The measure worked, because it brought the hoarding largely to a halt and preserved the crops which might have been destroyed.

Even in the face of terrorism which was being encouraged by the white forces, Lenin generally opposed the death penalty, but said they should pass that judgement on any terrorist known to have planted bombs, but with the proviso that the death sentence would only be carried out in conjunction with further attacks.

Execution by firing squad carried out by the Reds pales against the bloodbath inflicted by the whites. Any red caught by the whites faced almost immediate death in the execution sheds, whereas if a rank and file soldier from the white side was caught he was often shown how wrong he had been to side with the class enemy. This was Lenin's method when faced by regiments sent by czarist General Kornilov to break up the revolution and arrest him prior to the October revolution. Kornilov realised that every regiment he sent was swelling the ranks of the revolution because of the common class appeals issued by Lenin's bolsheviks. Class appeal worked then and it worked later in that savage civil war sparked by outsiders. It worked well then, so why change?

When the naval fortress of Kronstadt insurrected against the revolution it was said that something must have gone seriously wrong for the heart of the revolution to turn against Lenin. The truth is, that Kronstadt had been emptied 3 times over, it's best bolshevik sailors being sent to strengthen the front against the whites. What remained at Kronstadt were untrained and undisciplined men and as Lenin predicted a high ranking czarist officer and his staff was behind it all.

Proclamations issued by the mutineers said they were in favour of the revolution but were now against Lenin and that they would only come out if he was deposed. This was little more than an opportunist attempt to decapitate the revolution of it's best leader so as to weaken resistance to the whites.

The fortress was surrounded by superior force and the the men inside were told they could lay down their arms and hand over their officers, or the revolution would shoot it's way in. Three days later the order was reluctantly given and after a short but bloody battle the fortress fell. An Admiral of the czar's navy was found to be at the centre of the trouble and he and his officers were shot for mutiny against the worker's state. The rank and file were shown how badly they had been misled and were dispersed to be incorporated into the ranks of the red army, where they learned to fight, some acquitting themselves in battle very well even.

See how prison mutinies are put down in some places and where they often espouse the most liberal views.

Vic Dale

User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7490
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: Are the bad guys on the move again?

Postby RF » Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:35 pm

A somewhat jaundiced view of the civil war in Russia 1918-22.

That the second revolution was virtually unopposed is not in dispute, the government had no credibility or legitimacy because it wanted to carry on fighting in the First World War. The rest of the discourse can be summed up in one sentence - the Reds were one force and organised, the Whites were many forces, spread all over the place, with no overall leadership or organisation. They were bound to fail in a prolonged war and did. The only White forces to make gains were the Poles - under Pilsudski.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

lwd
Senior Member
Posts: 3810
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:15 am
Location: Southfield, USA

Re: Are the bad guys on the move again?

Postby lwd » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:13 pm

Vic Dale wrote:.... The Taliban, bad as they are at public relations have never attacked the USA and nor did Saddam Hussein.

The Taliban were allowing Ben Laden and company to train and prepair for attacks on the US and the West. Sadam did attack the US.
Al-queada justified it's first terrorist attacks which were delivered simultaneaously in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and Nairobi, in 1998 as retaliation for US interference in Africa and the Middle East. If the USA kept it's fingers out of other people's pies, Al-queada would have a hard job fonding support and no possible justification for it's actions.

Possibly but probabbly not. Their disagreements with the US had more to do with fundamental difference in world view. As for the US keeping it finger's out of other peoples pies, very hard to do and not necessarily a good idea.
I think the hard thing for Americans to accept is the world does not need them.

Perhaps because it's not particularlly accurate. Especially as far as advancing civiliazation and standards of living are concnerned.
Since the end of the second world war, the USA has left a trail of partitioned states shattered cities and millions of dead - a veritable trail of destruction...


And tremendouse improvements in standards of living and politcial freedom.

lwd
Senior Member
Posts: 3810
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:15 am
Location: Southfield, USA

Re: Are the bad guys on the move again?

Postby lwd » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:16 pm

Bgile wrote:The invasion if Iraq was a terrible idea.

I dissagree.
It took our eyes off the real problem.

It has been responsible for the major revereses sustainded by the Islamic terrorist.
In fact, it may have been criminal.

Not really.
Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11 and I think most people realize that now.

Anyone who was at all familiar with the situation didn't think so at the time either.

lwd
Senior Member
Posts: 3810
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:15 am
Location: Southfield, USA

Re: Are the bad guys on the move again?

Postby lwd » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:29 pm

Bgile wrote: .... There was never any need to invade Iraq, and in fact the coalition members were opposed to doing so. ....

Not so. It may not have been an overwhelming need at the time but a case has been made for. The opposition of the coalition memebers was one of the reasons it wasn't perued.

User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7490
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: Are the bad guys on the move again?

Postby RF » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:08 pm

The opposition of the Coalition members was in deposing Saddam and creating a power vaccuum in Iraq, possibly involving the partition of that country. A miscalculation if they believed this, more like an excuse (to me) for not wanting to properly finish the job.

A question, Bgile. If Iraq wasn't invaded in 2003 and Saddam stays in power, eventually succeeded by his sons, how many people have to die within and without Iraq because of their rule? I suspect a great deal more than has happened with the 2003 invasion and the aftermath. Which is the lesser evil? That is why matters should have been finished in Desert Storm.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

lwd
Senior Member
Posts: 3810
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:15 am
Location: Southfield, USA

Re: Are the bad guys on the move again?

Postby lwd » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:37 pm

RF wrote:A question, Bgile. If Iraq wasn't invaded in 2003 and Saddam stays in power, eventually succeeded by his sons, how many people have to die within and without Iraq because of their rule? ...

And sooner or later there would have been a revolt that would have toppled him or his sons. Without the western forces to restrain them the blood letting in such a revolt would have been incredible. If the Shia gained control there might have been an even greater drop in the Sunni population with most of them being dead rather than in excile.

Bgile
Senior Member
Posts: 3658
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:33 pm
Location: Portland, OR, USA

Re: Are the bad guys on the move again?

Postby Bgile » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:22 pm

What made us the world policeman? I don't want to be in the business of going around the world fixing broken countries. It won't take many more of these to permanently destroy the US and world economy instead of just part way like now.

I take it you guys don't think these bad things will still happen. I think the jury is still out. We haven't left Iraq yet. Wait a few years. They still hate each other.

User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7490
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: Are the bad guys on the move again?

Postby RF » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:45 pm

It isn't that I want the US or for that matter my own country, Britain, to be the World's policeman. But if we have to go in then at least get it right first time and finish the job. Not do half a job and then discover that we have to go in again, and then again and again, in a never ending saga.

With Iraq and Saddam, the invasion of Kuwait did I think achieve a consensus, at least in the West, that we should go in and remove him after it was made clear the Iraqi's would not leave peaceably. That was the time to finish matters. As with appeasement in the 1930's a heavy price follows the wrong decisions.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

lwd
Senior Member
Posts: 3810
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:15 am
Location: Southfield, USA

Re: Are the bad guys on the move again?

Postby lwd » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:52 pm

Bgile wrote:What made us the world policeman? I don't want to be in the business of going around the world fixing broken countries. It won't take many more of these to permanently destroy the US and world economy instead of just part way like now.

We obviously are not "the world policeman". However there are occasions when we need to act. Going into a messed up country and simply removing the current leader doesn't necessarily solve the problem. Indeed that was one of the biggest flaws in Bush's initial plan.
I take it you guys don't think these bad things will still happen. I think the jury is still out. We haven't left Iraq yet. Wait a few years. They still hate each other.

Well obviously Sadam and his sons are out of the picture. As for Iraq reverting to dictatorship and or civil war indeed that is possible. I think however we have given them a chance and that's about the best we can do. Also while they may still hate each other a lot of people are starting to see a future there and don't want it destroyed by irrational acts. I'll agree it's still not sure who will win out in the end.

User avatar
Karl Heidenreich
Senior Member
Posts: 4808
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:19 pm
Location: San José, Costa Rica
Contact:

Re: Are the bad guys on the move again?

Postby Karl Heidenreich » Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:29 pm

Let´s see the great social accomplishments of the marxists through History:

1. China and Mao: at least 50 million deaths because of the revolution, great leap forward and cultural revolution. Stunning!
2. Rusia with Lenin and Trotsky´s red army: 1,5 million deaths
3. Stalin´s workers paradise: 17 million deaths
4. Pol Pot´s Cambodia: 2,300,000 deaths
5. North Korea´s proletariat´s utopy: 1,190,000 deaths
6. Vietnam and Ho: 2,000,000 plus 700,000 cambodians
7. Central America revolutionary wars (in which I was a witness): 500,000
8. Fidel Castro´s: 30,000 during the "political cleansing" plus those he has murdered since then even in Africa
9. Sendero Luminoso in Peru: about 100,000 deaths up to date

Just Fidel, for example, took the totality of the so called crimes of Pinochet and the Argentinian dictatorship together and he is still winning for more than twice. And the "social" experiments in Asia make Hitler look like Gandhi.

These are some examples of what the teachings of what satanic Marx left us. I still remember the night we stoned the Soviet Cultural Centre in San José, Costa Rica for the Korean Air LInes 747 that was downed by the criminal comunists. The good part was when the "Socialiest Youth" came to the rescue in the middle of the night. The police had to come and rescue them thereafter. That´s the sad part of being 40+ years instead of 18: that if you need to joyfully join some street fight you are not going to be as fast as you were in the golden years.

Anyway: thanks to Marx many more people had died than needed. I think that he actually beat the middle ages Black Death.

Best regards,
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7490
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: Are the bad guys on the move again?

Postby RF » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:40 pm

Karl, you forgot to add Agostino Neto and his regime in Angola to your list. Initially propped up against Holden Roberto's FNLA by the Cubans, who then sponsored the MPLA war against Jonas Savimbi for another 18 years.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

User avatar
Karl Heidenreich
Senior Member
Posts: 4808
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:19 pm
Location: San José, Costa Rica
Contact:

Re: Are the bad guys on the move again?

Postby Karl Heidenreich » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:36 am

Well, after what happened at Fort Hood two things are evident:

1. The claim that says that democracy itselfs carries the seed of it´s own destruction is not that unaccurate. Ideology could trespass the borders and settle in the minds of islamic fanatics even withing the army that has to fight them.

2. Muslim psychiastrist in the US Army? I ask this question: how many psychiastrits had Genghis Khan, Alexander or Julius Caesar in their armies? And if they had one would they had allowed it been a member of the enemy?

This is my saying: in case of doubt look to what Caesar or Khan would have done and do exactly that. If they won (and sometimes in numerical inferiority) how they could have been mistaken?
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7490
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: Are the bad guys on the move again?

Postby RF » Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:55 am

Democracy may carry the seed of its own destruction, but still requires the will, either passive through inaction, or the active assent by the majority for it to happen.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

User avatar
Karl Heidenreich
Senior Member
Posts: 4808
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:19 pm
Location: San José, Costa Rica
Contact:

Re: Are the bad guys on the move again?

Postby Karl Heidenreich » Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:44 am

Talking about Bad Guys: Hugo Chavez rethoric could take him near "Hitler" this time. He is shouting that Venezuela might enter in a war against Colombia. I figure that Barack Osama (excuse me, Obama) will not do anything again leaving this dictator to do whatever he please.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill


Return to “Off Topic”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest