Cinco de mayo

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Karl Heidenreich
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Cinco de mayo

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Wed May 06, 2009 2:45 am

As for historical issues let´s not forget Cinco de Mayo: the date in which Mexico gave some butt kicking to the French (and so forth becoming one more in the long list of countries that had defeated the French sometime in History).

Battle of Puebla, May 5th, 1862

Even though the French, later, did take Mexico city and proclaimed a Habsburg "emperor" that didn´t last long and the foreing legion was, finally, defeated.

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Re: Cinco de mayo

Post by RF » Wed May 06, 2009 7:16 am

So I see Mexico has actually won a war, or at least a battle.

This episode was I believe a major build up to Napoleon III finally finishing the French monarchy, the final act being the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-71.
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Re: Cinco de mayo

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Wed May 06, 2009 11:06 am

RF;

The Mexicans won that particular battle. Then the French reinforced themselves and finally got to the capital city proclaiming an "emperor". Then they were utterly defeated, as expected, and expell of the country.
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Re: Cinco de mayo

Post by RF » Wed May 06, 2009 1:11 pm

I presume that under the Monroe Doctrine of 1823 that if the Mexicans had not thrown Napoleon out then the Americans would.....
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Re: Cinco de mayo

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Wed May 06, 2009 2:38 pm

RF:
I presume that under the Monroe Doctrine of 1823 that if the Mexicans had not thrown Napoleon out then the Americans would.....
I presume that under the Monroe Doctrine of 1823 that if the Mexicans had not thrown Napoleon out then the Americans would.....
Many expected that but for those years the US was involved, seriously, in their own Civil War. Also many expected that with a raised army of over 1,000,000 men (nothing like that in history until then) the US will advance north and south after the Civil War and get Canada and Mexico for themselves, which didn´t happen. This is curious because is an evidence that the US is not the imperialistic power the leftists in Latin America claim it is.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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Re: Cinco de mayo

Post by JtD » Wed May 06, 2009 5:35 pm

Economy is a far better weapon than a million man. Less investment, more return.

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Re: Cinco de mayo

Post by Bgile » Wed May 06, 2009 9:08 pm

JtD wrote:Economy is a far better weapon than a million man. Less investment, more return.
Yes, and China is in the driver's seat.

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Re: Cinco de mayo

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Thu May 07, 2009 2:19 am

JtD:
Economy is a far better weapon than a million man. Less investment, more return.
When "President" Obama visited Trinidad & Tobago for the so called Summit of the Americas the Venezuelan Mad Dog Hugo Chávez gave him a present that it´s a book called "The Open Veins of Latin America" of the so called historian Eduardo Galeano. It´s a leftist book that claims to be and "historical account". Basically it claims that ALL the poverty, all the disgraces and disasters of the latin american countries for 500 years are due to european colonial powers and evil United States. Not one problem has it´s source in the idiology of Latin Americans or the native corruption that has battered these countries for so long. Many historians, even from Latin America, had answered and destroyed the premises of the "Open Veins of Latin America"

But of crucial importance is the book "The Perfect Latin American Idiot Manual" (which uses "The Open Veins" as some sort of starting point) , written by latin american intelectuals Plinio A. Mendoza, Carlos Alberto Montaner and Alvaro V. Llosa with an introduction of Mario Vargas Llosa. In this book the issue of the so-call imperialistic procedure of "governing" countries through economic means in order to establish a dependency relation is torpedoed the way Yamato was. I remember clearly this argument which I try to write down without having the book with me: "Why?" the authors ask "would an Empire seek to dominate countries with a so difficult, expensive and not so secure means as economic dependency or explotaition if they can do it, easily, with overwhelming military action in a couple of weeks?" If an Empire, a real one, even a colonialistic one (GB, France or Netherlands for example) wanted or needed a particular territory, nation or whatever, they simply landed on it and overwhelmed it with it´s superior technological army. And the bla-bla-bla about Vietnam does not apply here because... according to Galeano and the marxist theoreticians this phenomena was occurring a century before Vietnam! So, not so sure that, at the end, USA could be branded as an Empire.

An Empire is Egypt or Asiria or Persia or Rome. A colonial empire is Great Britain. Or a comunist Empire as USSR or China. If the USA is a colonial empire then it´s a naive and "good nature" one that sells cars and computers and raise many countries life standards... even those of it´s enemies. Let´s see, for instance Internet: a US invention. used by all anti US people to criticise and expand hate against the US. What do the US do? They shut it down as would have done the soviets? No, they have a Supreme Court that allows people who hate US to use it to expand it´s hate. Idiocy. If the US is an Empire then it´s time for the world to experience a little bit of a "real" empire as Japan was, or Hitler´s Germany or Stalin´s Russia or, much better, Khan´s one!

Best regards,
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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Re: Cinco de mayo

Post by RF » Thu May 07, 2009 7:18 am

Karl Heidenreich wrote:
Many expected that but for those years the US was involved, seriously, in their own Civil War. Also many expected that with a raised army of over 1,000,000 men (nothing like that in history until then) the US will advance north and south after the Civil War and get Canada and Mexico for themselves, which didn´t happen. This is curious because is an evidence that the US is not the imperialistic power the leftists in Latin America claim it is.
Don't forget that with the incident over the Trent, the British ship intercepted and boarded by the US Federal Navy, the Lincoln and Johnson administrations were anxious to keep Britain out of the domestic conflict. Any incursion into Canada was therefore out. In any case, the war of 1812 gave the Americans the assurance that Canada didn't want to join the USA; and of course in 1867 the Americans did gain Alaska from the Russians. And also for the next 50 years the US expansion was westward.....
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Re: Cinco de mayo

Post by RF » Thu May 07, 2009 7:22 am

JtD wrote:Economy is a far better weapon than a million man. Less investment, more return.
Size of economy may be a better weapon, what is important is how that economy is used - resource allocation and utilisation. A major example of the deficiences in that was Nazi Germany, one principle reason Hitler lost the war
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Re: Cinco de mayo

Post by RF » Thu May 07, 2009 7:27 am

Bgile wrote:
JtD wrote:Economy is a far better weapon than a million man. Less investment, more return.
Yes, and China is in the driver's seat.
I don't think so, not at least yet.

China has a vast population and a rapidly growing economy.

But economic development is uneven and is primarily focussed on the coastal regions, which are able to access foreign trade. The vast hinterland remains undeveloped.
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Re: Cinco de mayo

Post by RF » Thu May 07, 2009 7:32 am

Karl Heidenreich wrote:
An Empire is Egypt or Asiria or Persia or Rome. A colonial empire is Great Britain. Or a comunist Empire as USSR or China. If the USA is a colonial empire then it´s a naive and "good nature" one that sells cars and computers and raise many countries life standards... even those of it´s enemies. Let´s see, for instance Internet: a US invention. used by all anti US people to criticise and expand hate against the US. What do the US do? They shut it down as would have done the soviets? No, they have a Supreme Court that allows people who hate US to use it to expand it´s hate. Idiocy. If the US is an Empire then it´s time for the world to experience a little bit of a "real" empire as Japan was, or Hitler´s Germany or Stalin´s Russia or, much better, Khan´s one!

Best regards,
Rather like the Taliban and Islamic fundamentalists using the technology of the West to attack the West - technology which under their ideology they wouldn't be able to develop themselves.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Re: Cinco de mayo

Post by Bgile » Thu May 07, 2009 3:35 pm

RF wrote:
Bgile wrote:
JtD wrote:Economy is a far better weapon than a million man. Less investment, more return.
Yes, and China is in the driver's seat.
I don't think so, not at least yet.

China has a vast population and a rapidly growing economy.

But economic development is uneven and is primarily focussed on the coastal regions, which are able to access foreign trade. The vast hinterland remains undeveloped.
I was referring to the fact that their trade balance with the US is vastly in their favor, and they hold much of the US foreign debt. They are not yet the largest economy in the world, but at the present rate they will be soon.

edit: They are also able to avoid military entanglements and play the "good guy" everywhere, to their great advantage both politically and economically. They are doing very well.

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Re: Cinco de mayo

Post by JtD » Thu May 07, 2009 4:42 pm

RF wrote:
JtD wrote:Economy is a far better weapon than a million man. Less investment, more return.
Size of economy may be a better weapon, what is important is how that economy is used - resource allocation and utilisation. A major example of the deficiences in that was Nazi Germany, one principle reason Hitler lost the war
I didn't say that economy is a means to do war, it is a type of warfare on it's own. The growing influence of the US in the past century is much more linked to their growing economic strength that to their growing military power. Same is true for Japan or Germany after WW2. Otoh, the UK lost a lot despite of winning two world wars.

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Re: Cinco de mayo

Post by RF » Fri May 08, 2009 7:37 am

Bgile wrote:
I was referring to the fact that their trade balance with the US is vastly in their favor, and they hold much of the US foreign debt. They are not yet the largest economy in the world, but at the present rate they will be soon.

edit: They are also able to avoid military entanglements and play the "good guy" everywhere, to their great advantage both politically and economically. They are doing very well.
China has risen to having the fourth largest economy in the world. They have a long way to go before they overtake the US, Japan and Germany. Yes, they hold a lot of the US debt, but the US has been in deficit for the last 40 years.
They have avoided direct military entanglements, providing of course that the issue of Taiwan doesn't blow up. Yes, they are doing well - on paper.
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