The future of Europe

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Bgile
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by Bgile » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:57 pm

I'm a bit confused. On the one hand you complain of the structural immobility of labour:
RF wrote: ... What is not necessary is a political nomenklatura seeking to excercise political control over the whole area, using the economic straightjacket of a common currency and interest rates, which causes problems where there are differing rates of economic growth, inflation and with the structural immobility of labour.
and then we have ...
RF wrote: ... whilst at the same time we have the sudden free movement of largely unskilled labour into countries like Britain, where our social security system has to look after them, while they try to find work here and in many cases don't speak any English. It is also a matter of record that these people also bring with them crime (including organised, international crime) and anti-social behavior, which has and is a particular problem in the city of Wolverhampton, where I live.
where you complain about the "sudden free movement of largely unskilled labour" ...

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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:57 pm

Bgile,

The EU allows free movement of labour between countries, hence there is little in the way of immigration control of the substantial amount of such labour that is able to migrate from the new entrants to the EU to the richer EU economies, or at least those with the most generous welfare payment systems, such as Britain. All the northern EU member countries have had problems with labour coming in, not just from the EU entrant countries but also from their former colonial empires, including for example even Spain has problems with illegal immigration (illegal under EU rules) from North Africa.

However, not all the available labour in the new entrant countries is able to migrate - a lot of it is immobile, and with sudden economic liberalisation comes the labour ''shakeout'' and the problem of what to do with it, particulary the unskilled labour that isn't inclined or able to move eleswhere....

There are long term solutions to this with economic growth and ''inward investment'' but this takes a long time to have an effect. What are needed are solutions now and that isn't easy to provide, particulary when you also have worldwide economic recession and an insecure banking system.
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hammy
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by hammy » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:04 am

Having returned ( Like General Macarthur ! ) from the perils of the Levant , and quenched various domestic "Fires" I am now free to continue our vexed discussion regarding the entry of Turkey into the E U .
It would be silly of me to judge the whole nation from an airborne glimpse of eastern Thrace , and a fortnight lazing around the city of Istanbul , probably the most un-Turkish city in the country , but I did get off the tourist round and got to talk to people unassociated with the visitor trade there .

I was surprised to see the pace of redevelopment in the area - as in Greece , new motorways , urban light rail and tramways , modernisation of the railways and docks/harbours all well in hand , and all done without E U financial support ( which will please you , R F ! :D ) .
Within the walls of the old city ( approximately a triangle 5 Km each side ) there are some very run down areas equating to the areas of the U Ks cities that were cleared as "Slums" in the 1930s . However these are being cleared and replaced with modern building , with , as usual , a little too much zeal for the new start , so that certain buildings which would be picked out in a current redevelopment scheme here as worthy of preservation/conservation are there adding to the rubble piles .
I was impressed by the standard of "Urban Design" in the new areas , quite as good as anything in the West , carefully carried out , and suited to the traffic across the spaces ,i.e. generally standing up well to the routine wear and tear . Their urban landscape architects plainly have talent . This can also be seen around the open spaces in the historic bits too , the new work blends well with the old .

The Economy there does not depend upon Tourism , though that is an important sector and crucial to a few limited areas of the city . Much of the city is busy with other things unrelated to visitors .
There seems to be considerable "Under-employment" there , in that many people about on the streets are engaged in "McOccupations" , not just the hawkers and peddlars to the tourists but many more hawking and peddling to the population , sometimes items of utter inutility , porters with handcarts wandering about and crying out that they are for hire , others in the rabbit-warrens of the Bazaars who carry huge loads about on their backs , bent near double under a species of packframe , or human pack-saddle , which they generally hire for a few Lira per day before setting out to sell their own carrying capacity on a casual basis in the alleys and lanes .
About the most casual of casual-labour imaginable .
I discussed the benefits of these precarious and unrewarding existences with tavern aquaintances there and was assured that these "occupations" were regarded as far more respectable than straight begging or taking state welfare benefits , regarded as the last resort of the hopelessly helpless , impaired and vulnerable in society .
Better to stand on a street corner with a carboard tray with a few packets of tissues , a handful of ballpoint pens and half-a-dozen cheap cigarette lighters to proffer to passers-by .
Interesting . I thought WE were the ones with the "Protestant work ethic" .
That this kind of activity is generally regarded as morally preferable to to begging/benefit claiming is of course healthier too for the individual , as they are less likely to succumb to the isolation and depression that are the product of Unemployment as experienced in our more advanced society .
The Mosques were traditionally the central core building of complexes that provided much of the historical social care in Islamic society , including soup kitchens for the poor .
I was in one of the big Mosques and stuck my head into the room marked "Information" to learn more , got greeted like a long lost brother , and chatted for about three hours , and was surprised to be told in the course of that , that this aspect of their charitable work was pretty much redundant , and that simple hunger was no longer a problem as was routine up to fifty years ago (except for a very few people in desperate states) .

Regarding potential entrance into the E U , I was surprised to hear mixed views and dubiety around the issue , in several seperate discussions .
I found that the Turks I met were generally strongly nationalist in sentiment in the sense of wanting to preserve their own identity , and were puzzled to hear that there were misgivings among some in the West who regard their accession to the E U as the spearpoint of some new islamist irruption into Europe .
Bearing in mind that these were Istanbullis , citizens of one of the world's most polyglot cities , their view of themselves was as Europeans and secular in nature and inclinations , albeit with strong original roots in Islam and as (nominally) descendants of hordes of horseborne warriors galloping majestically across the Steppes .
Several expressed reservations about what they saw as potentially becoming subsumed within an amorphous E U , and feared an incoming surge of immigrants from the richer western nations who would drive up all the prices and fundamentally alter their ways .
( Now where have we heard that before ? :think: )
Few expressed any interest in moving to another european country to live , and those that did mostly said they would go to Germany , where the links have been very strong for a hundred years now .

As a people I found that they varied widely , from people as pallid as those of us who inhabit the damp and cold northwest of Europe , through the dark Mediterranean types , to occasional people of Asiatic appearance , which given the history one would expect .
Turkey traditionally accepted Religious refugees , famously the European Jews fleeing the renaissance era european persecutions , more recently (and something of which I was unaware) many southern and eastern european Roma , Gypsies , fleeing from the Nazis during WW2 ,
and currently Moslem populations fled from Bosnia (there is a whole new district of the city named "Yeni-Bosna" = new Bosnia) , others from the on-going troubles in the Caucasus states , Chechens , Ingush , Dagestanis , and yet others from further away Kazakstanis , Uzbeks , even Uighir people from Sinkiang and the present Chinese oppressions there .
In dress the men are wholly European , a few old men still wearing the skullcaps , baggy "crap-catcher" trousers and other traditional clothing . The women mostly wear a headscarf ( but then so does the Queen and dear Princess Anne ! :D ) together with an light coat that reaches down to mid-calf , but there are few wearing the Chador - say two or three per hundred ? I was told that most that do are from the more conservative areas far to the East , nearby Iran .

To sum up then , on the point about Turkey coming in to the E U , I see little reason to fear that .
" Relax ! No-one else is going to be fool enough to be sailing about in this fog ."

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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:20 pm

Istanbul is of course inside Europe, whereas the bulk of Turkey and its population is in Asia. These semantics aside Turkey stands to gain (or its political elite stands to gain) from EU subsidies and the labour force will have the right to travel into other EU countries to work; the population will have less control over who really rules and its government is marginalised. If they are happy for that then that is their right. If I was a Turk I would want a much better deal.

For Britain it means an increased burden of financing the Turkish subsidy, the possibility of any number of further persons coming here for work or welfare and imposing further costs on our resources without significantly contributing towards them. We have no real say on this and that is what I find objectionable. We currently have a general election in Britain, for the purpose of the people choosing the next British government. Only that government won't be in control completely of our borders, immigration policy, economic policy or foreign affairs because any laws passed by parliament are subordinate to the EU. And the EU government is unelected and has no mandate to rule Britain. I call that dictatorship, taxation without representation and a breach of the United Nations Charter guarateeing member states the right of self determination. I should be electing a true decision maker, not a rubber stamp.
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Gary
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by Gary » Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:27 pm

I have the same concerns about the EU that you mentioned RF.
Someone at work the other day said "why doesnt Britain just pull out the EU?"
Is that possible, is it that simple?
What consequences would their be?
Would we be cutting our nose off to spite our face?
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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:43 am

Gary,

Have a look at the UKIP website: <www.ukip.org> and make your own mind up.

I don't see the EU as a holy grail and I can remember the time before Britain joined.
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hammy
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by hammy » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:45 am

I can remember that too .

Then , we had close relationships with most of the old commonwealth countries , so Canada , New Zealand , Australia were closely linked with tarrif free trading arrangements .
Britain coming into the E E C meant that everything they sent here as exports then became subject to import duties .
I can just see us going back to them all to say sorry , it was all a ghastly mistake . Having met a few Australians in my time I can imagine the reply we would get .

Do you really WANT to be an isolated little island off the map of a united mainland Europe ? Like Albania used to be ?

We fought three world wars (including the one against Napoleon Bonaparte) to prevent that very situation arising .

Or are you proposing that we become "Airstrip 1" , the 53rd colony state of the USA , their unsinkable aircraft carrier off the coast of Europe ?

How does our Economics Graduate propose we uncouple our economy from that of Europe , and how are we supposed to sell what is left of our production there with 10% or more instant customs duty clapped onto the price ?
Given that the huge Financial services sector could just about operate from Pitcairn Island if it absolutely had to , what is to stop most of that from folding it's tents and relocating across the narrow seas ?

All this stuff about how much it costs us as a nation is bunkum . This country is run by a hidden establishment OF the wealthy , FOR the wealthy . If they were REALLY losing money to Europe hand over fist , do you really believe that they would tolerate that for a moment ? You would find that the Media (which they also own , or run through their appointed nominees) would be united in screaming out for a change in direction . So would the C B I (another front organisation for them) , so would a gaggle of so-called "think tanks" , so would a majority of so-called "Celebrities" , so would most of the Politicians , the Lawyers and the Church , because they are all part of the same set-up , either taking directly from it or under the patronage of someone who is , and obliged to sing the party line .

You say you dont want to live in a Dictatorship R F ? Well what do you think this is ?
Cant even take a photo in central London nowadays without having your collar felt can you ?
Cant draw £1000 out of your bank account (or pay it in) without a lot of impertinent questions as to what you are going to do with it , or where you got it from , can you ?
Britons never will be slaves ? Dont make me laugh , you are slaves from the moment you are born , you just cant see the Manacles because of the distractions that the system provides .
Coming out of the E U (which is broadly Social Democrat in inclination/sentiment) and placing ourselves wholly in the power of this viciously selfish "elite"
is exactly NOT the clever thing to do .

R F is an intelligent man , you can tell that from the stuff in his posts , able to make an intelligent case , but the average UKIP party member isn't like that at all .
We've got one up our street , poster up for the election , so for a laugh I went and knocked on his door last night , and when the shaven headed occupant answered I said "Hello , I'm Jack from no 43 , saw the poster and wanted to ask something ".
" I am half German , My wife is half Armenian , my neighbours on one side are Southern Irish , on the other side one is northern Irish and one is from the Canary islands , across the road are a Cypriot Turk , an Austrian jewish lady who came here on one of the KinderTransports , just around the corner lives a Czech , and around another is a family of Poles , and a guy with a portugese name who is actually from Goa on the Indian sub-continent .
There are Albanians cleaning the cars down at Tescos and in two nearby hand-car-washes , Chinese in the chip shops , Bangladeshis in the Indian takeaway , Turks from Trabzon in the Kebab shop , my Dentist is South African of Asian ethnicity , my Vet is from South Africa but a Boer , My mate at work is originally from Hugenot origins , and my postman is black (and from his accent) very recently deepest African ."

" Please tell me which of us Foreigners your party is going to ship out first "

I'd expected a slightly feeble embarrassed smile , but what I actually got was a straight " Oh , party headquarters can answer all that , I'm just a supporter " and a leaflet stuck in my hand with the local phone number on it . As if what I had asked was some acceptable concept .
The party rank and file are plainly mostly " Petty-Nazi-Lite " , and the union Flag wrapping doesn't alter what lies beneath . Ignorance and Petty Prejudice and the propensity to blame all their troubles on nasty foreigners rather than on the true source of their troubles .
I wouldn't touch them with a barge-pole .
" Relax ! No-one else is going to be fool enough to be sailing about in this fog ."

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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:53 pm

Yes hammy, and did you ring the phone number? Of course not. You woundn't want to be conversing with the British National Party would you?

My suggestion to you is the same as to Gary. Have a look at the UKIP website and make your own mind up. And you will see that some of their candidates despise the BNP and the policies of ethnic cleansing as much as you do and I do.

At the risk of being further accused of spam and of replying to every post of this forum, I would add that the rant in the above post is rather misdirected. We live in a global economy and leaving the EU does not stop us from trading or co-operating with all of the countries of Europe, as indeed the Swiss, not in the EU but completely surrounded by it, manage to do. I won't respond to the ridiculous conspiracy theories about the wealthy running everything but I would add that the petty officialdom and abuse of our liberties in the UK you alude to are almost entirely derived from the political elite in this country that so strongly supports the EU. Much of this regulation has arisen because of EU directives. Now I deplore these abuses of our freedom and I want to be rid of the politicians and organisations that are the cause of this situation. To me that answer is to vote for UKIP. Because if these problems are not solved, there is a very real risk that the BNP will become a substantial force in our political system and I don't want our inner cities reduced to civil war that would inevitably follow.

Open your eyes hammy, it is your country as well as mine.

Oh incidently, if most of Europe did end up in the hands of the far right, guess what? The BNP could use the EU as a fascist international, yes the BNP would fully support the EU and our membership of it. You don't think so? Well Tony Blair, Neil Kinnock and Ian Paisley all made the about turn switch so I could well believe it.
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hammy
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by hammy » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:36 pm

The leading lights of the UKIP may be thinking people but many , if not a majority , of their supporters aren't , so no thank you , i dont want to talk to them .

Our local UKIP candidate here in Norwich North , Mr Glen Tingle , lost no time during the recent by-election period here a few months ago to try to stir up trouble about a total non-event locally .

Some Baltic state citizens ( I cant remember if they were from Estonia,Latvia, or Lithuania ), who are working here on construction sites (quite legally) were living together in a local rented terraced house . One of them was trying to find and correct a fault on his moped in the little front yard space , and it back-fired a couple of times ( for our foreign readers that means the fuel/air mix did not fire in the cylinder , but was ejected un-burnt into the exhaust system , which being hot , exploded the mix there instead which makes a loud bang ).
Instead of coming outside to find out what was happening , the fine local residents rang the police and reported shots were being fired by the "Russians" inside .

Cue a six hour armed siege by the police , finally followed by the intervention of someone who could speak their language , followed by a minute examination of the house and of those living in it , in which NOTHING , ABSOLUTELY NOTHING , was found to be out of order .

And your (crop haired ex-army) candidate was filmed by the local T V the morning after , milking the situation for all it was worth , and saying that this is what happens when Russian Mafia gangsters are allowed into the U K .
In fact it is what typically happens when strangers come to live here and move in next to petty xenophobic racists , and that ignorance is matched by a police force which has failed to equip itself to deal with the free movement of people within the E U , and by petty local Demagogues who sieze on incidents such as this to stir up trouble .

As for the non existent rich elite , the UKIP was started by Jimmy Goldsmith , now thankfully no longer with us , although his son Zak , who inherited his millions is , and is the non-domiciled prospective Tory candidate for some rich mans bantustan constituency west of London where a sheep would be elected provided it wore a blue rosette .
I dont think it is me that needs to wake up here .

And I cant see Europe falling into the hands of the Far-right any time soon because having had a dose of that sort of extremism in the last century I dont think that people are going to go for it again .
" Relax ! No-one else is going to be fool enough to be sailing about in this fog ."

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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:42 am

hammy wrote:The leading lights of the UKIP may be thinking people but many , if not a majority , of their supporters aren't , so no thank you , i dont want to talk to them .
You are talking - or rather ranting - to me.

To engage in debate the point is to understand the other persons point of view, otherwise you learn nothing. You don't want to talk to them, you don't want to understand because you are trapped into your own limited vision. And it is not a very attractive vision is it?

I can understand why the EU exists, the motives and visions of those who created it and the forerunners who dreamed of it before it was set up. That is partly due to my subscribing to and reading websites and forums dedicated to supporting Europe as one nation and the idea of a world government. Their proponenants are articulate, well informed and have genuine vision for the future, unlike some of the ranters on this forum. Many of their views and ideals I have great sympathy with, particulary as it is acknowledged that the EU has a ''democratic deficit''. Their solution is to reform the EU. I think the EU is unreformable.
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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:02 am

hammy wrote:
Cue a six hour armed siege by the police , finally followed by the intervention of someone who could speak their language , followed by a minute examination of the house and of those living in it , in which NOTHING , ABSOLUTELY NOTHING , was found to be out of order .

And your (crop haired ex-army) candidate was filmed by the local T V the morning after , milking the situation for all it was worth , and saying that this is what happens when Russian Mafia gangsters are allowed into the U K .
In fact it is what typically happens when strangers come to live here and move in next to petty xenophobic racists , and that ignorance is matched by a police force which has failed to equip itself to deal with the free movement of people within the E U , and by petty local Demagogues who sieze on incidents such as this to stir up trouble .
If people hear what could be shots from inside a building they are quite right to report it to the police. The police will have to investigate it, it is their job and they have to protect themselves doing it. In this case a genuine mistake was made, but it had to be checked out.

I can quote numerous instances of indigenous Britons being held by police because genuine mistakes like this happen. Including for example actors and cameramen working for a television company being arrested by armed police for filming a scene involving the portrayal of a bank robbery on the premises of an industrial estate (private property). Somebody misunderstood what was happening and even though the police were aware of this filming (the TV company had told them) they still had to check it out, and take proper precautions doing so.
And the police, like everyone else, are not perfect. They make mistakes. One type of police mistake quite common is raiding wrong addresses. It happens and the police are answerable for it.

Having said that it is the case that immigration, from whatever source, tends to bring crime in with it. Particulary menacing is the organised crime revolving around drugs and smuggling. And the result is that it creates a fear of crime, often wholly in excess of the actual scale of crime. All that you can do with this is to try to contain the crime and the fear that it engenders. Part of that containment is controlling the immigration and we can't do that properly. Mr Tingle is entirely right to highlight that.
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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:12 am

hammy wrote:
As for the non existent rich elite , the UKIP was started by Jimmy Goldsmith , now thankfully no longer with us , although his son Zak , who inherited his millions is , and is the non-domiciled prospective Tory candidate for some rich mans bantustan constituency west of London where a sheep would be elected provided it wore a blue rosette .
I dont think it is me that needs to wake up here .
Jimmy Goldsmith was never in UKIP. He founded the Referendum Party when he knew he was dying from cancer and in considerable pain. For that he has my respect and I will ignore your uncharitable comment on the presumption it was made in ignorance.

UKIP was founded by Alan Sked, a liberal who believes in free trade, as a non-racist, non-sectarian party. He left UKIP because he didn't go along with the issues flowing from EU membership, such as UKIP standing for the European Parliament, and the necessity of having proper immigration control. He was also, rightly in this respect, concerned that UKIP was (and is) being infiltrated by the BNP.
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Byron Angel

Re: The future of Europe

Post by Byron Angel » Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:27 pm

Hammy wrote - "You say you dont want to live in a Dictatorship R F ? Well what do you think this is ?"

..... Of course I'm observing (perhaps inaccurately) from across an ocean, but I find it ironic that the most avid apparent champion and pursuer of a social dictatorship in the UK is the Labour Party - the party of "the common man".

Byron

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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:48 pm

You are quite right Byron. And I would at least like to vote them out of office and at the same time vote against all the other ''mainstream parties'' who stand for the same values, while my vote, and everyone else's can have some meaning.

The party of the ''common man'' lost its way post war, to become a self serving clique endorsed by millions of voters who voted because they didn't want another self serving clique. Break that cycle, then we have a chance of some real democracy.
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Gary
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by Gary » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:28 pm

I like the UKIP's policy on Europe - they are firm and fair on British people but without the hatefulness of the Hitler party (BNP) but I cant ever see them winning an election.
As far as I'm aware, its nearly always been between Labour and Conservative
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