The future of Europe

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Bgile
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by Bgile » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:19 pm

Noone wants to become involved in another middle east war. It's a terrible tragedy for those involved, and it's not looking very good for them.

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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:18 am

The problem of course is the oil, given its importance to the world economy and not just the West. There is thus pressure to intervene, leaving aside the issue of human rights in these countries which itself creates pressure to intervene, even where the main western countries don't really want to.

In Britain we have this morning a YouGov opinion poll which says that two thirds of those asked would support a ''no fly zone.'' An even bigger percentage is against military intervention and the deployment of British forces - an outright contradiction.
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Bgile
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by Bgile » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:20 pm

Most people don't realize that a no fly zone has always involved suppressing AA installations, and then you have western aircraft attacking Moslems and civilian casualties. The Great Satan strikes again. In the mean time over here you have the right wing media roasting Obama for not having done a no fly zone already.

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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:12 am

We had a report on the BBC today - Camerons first war. Reality will strike as it is realised that the ''no fly zone'' has to be done by armed force. But no doubt Tony Blair will be pleased with his clone.
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frontkampfer
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by frontkampfer » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:33 pm

In the mean time over here you have the right wing media roasting Obama for not having done a no fly zone already.
Not quite sure which right wing media you refer to unless its the boogeyman Fox. For all I've seen the lame stream media has given president where's waldo a pass on this. Too busy filling out his March Madness NCAA brackets!

Having said that, it looks like the UN resolution is too little, too late and it will do no good except get US military personnel killed. With all respect to fellow forum members from europe, the NFZ looks like something the europeans want. Fine, but if that's the case they should take the lead in enforcing it. The US is way overstreatched. As we are a nation in decline I think we ca sit this one out. Maybe the chinese can help if their not busy?
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by lwd » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:17 pm

From what I've heard they really hope the Arab League steps up and supplies some of the firepower on this one.

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Dave Saxton
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by Dave Saxton » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:56 pm

Not all conservatives in the US are hot and ready to reccomend a no fly zone. I recently heard some commentary by Alan West of Florida (a retired miltary officer and rising conservative star) and he laid out the pros and cons. He thinks it would be counter productive at this time. The possibilty may call Q's bluff without actually having to do it though. But if he ignores the possibility, then it will result in the UN needing to enforce it or it will result a weakening of the UN.

What I beleive has ocurred in the last months (really in the last two years) is a lack of leadership by the US on the international stage. It has created a vacuum of leadership and created confusion among our allies and promotes greater instability among the already unstable issues.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:03 am

frontkampfer wrote:
In the mean time over here you have the right wing media roasting Obama for not having done a no fly zone already.
Not quite sure which right wing media you refer to unless its the boogeyman Fox. For all I've seen the lame stream media has given president where's waldo a pass on this. Too busy filling out his March Madness NCAA brackets!

Having said that, it looks like the UN resolution is too little, too late and it will do no good except get US military personnel killed. With all respect to fellow forum members from europe, the NFZ looks like something the europeans want. Fine, but if that's the case they should take the lead in enforcing it.
I think you are largely right. UN Resolution 1973 effectively is a legal rubber stamp for what the European Union has decided. The EU would of course enforce it by using British forces in the front line.......
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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:07 am

Dave Saxton wrote:Not all conservatives in the US are hot and ready to reccomend a no fly zone.
I think most forum members will regard me as a ''conservative'' and I too am not hot and ready to recommend a no fly zone.
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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:10 am

Dave Saxton wrote: .....some commentary by Alan West of Florida (a retired miltary officer and rising conservative star) and he laid out the pros and cons. He thinks it would be counter productive at this time. The possibilty may call Q's bluff without actually having to do it though. But if he ignores the possibility, then it will result in the UN needing to enforce it or it will result a weakening of the UN.
The risk is that it is not only counterproductive, but creates a power vacuuam in Libya once Gadaffi is gone - and another Iraq, another Afghanistan, but this time much closer to Europe.

The UN is very weak already. A bit like the League of Nations.
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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:14 am

lwd wrote:From what I've heard they really hope the Arab League steps up and supplies some of the firepower on this one.
Most of the forces backing Gadaffi are African and not Arab, coming from the ''Sahel'' countries to the south of Libya. Gaddaffi in recent years has moved Libya away from being an ''Arab'' country and the Arab League lacks clout and looks not really relevant. They certainly don't have any great firepower.
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by lwd » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:33 pm

RF wrote:
lwd wrote:From what I've heard they really hope the Arab League steps up and supplies some of the firepower on this one.
Most of the forces backing Gadaffi are African and not Arab, coming from the ''Sahel'' countries to the south of Libya.
Not sure how this is relevant to my post. Indeed those supporting Gadaffi seem to be a mix of odd dictators from a number of regions. He is hiring quite a few troops from neighboring areas.
Gaddaffi in recent years has moved Libya away from being an ''Arab'' country and the Arab League lacks clout and looks not really relevant. They certainly don't have any great firepower.
The Arab Leage has more than enough firepower to take care of him especially if backed by NATO. Indeed I suspect Egypt could do it on it's own if needed.

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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:44 pm

The point I was making is that Libya isn't entirely ''Arab'' so I don't think the Arab League is quite within its remit. The countries making up the Arab League may well have loads of hardware and firepower on paper, however armies from this area aren't very good in terms of fighting record, as the Isreali's have amptly demonstrated. And Egypt has its own internal problems.

For the record, I do think Gaddafi is on the way out and deserves all that he gets when it finally comes. But that is for his own people, not our respective countries or the EU to determine.
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lwd
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by lwd » Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:46 pm

RF wrote:The point I was making is that Libya isn't entirely ''Arab'' so I don't think the Arab League is quite within its remit.
Why would that make any difference. Libya isn't entirely "European" either is it. An Qaddafi is an Arab I believe and at least at one point Lybia was a member of the League was it not?
The countries making up the Arab League may well have loads of hardware and firepower on paper, however armies from this area aren't very good in terms of fighting record, as the Isreali's have amptly demonstrated. And Egypt has its own internal problems.
But they would be going up against Libya not Nato or even Russia. In the air they'd likely have AWACS and probably jamming support from NATO as well. That proved effective in ODS.
... But that is for his own people, not our respective countries or the EU to determine.
I agree but don't mind helping enough so that they have a decent chance of doing so.

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RF
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Re: The future of Europe

Post by RF » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:37 am

I've no objection to the US going into Libya. The US isn't my country1
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