The Climate Change agenda

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RF
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The Climate Change agenda

Postby RF » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:46 pm

The political elites and nomenklatura that make up the climate change industry are apparently stepping up their campaign of bullying and intimidation of those scientists and politicians who don't agree with them. The latest example to suffer is the Northern Ireland Environment Minister, whose resignation is demanded simply for expressing a contrary view to the climate change mantra.

Freedom of speech and expression no longer appears to apply to those of us who ask to see the proof of the reckless claims made by quango's such as the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.
What are they frightened of? That they cannot actually prove their case? Or is that too many non-jobs and taxpayer subsidies are at stake if their bubble is burst?

As a taxpayer and voter I object to paying taxes in the name of climate change that I know full well will do nothing to affect the climate one way or the other. You cannot substantially alter the climate any more than stop the waves.

To those who disagree - the challenge is prove your case with reasoned argument, without resorting to spin and cliches on the one hand, and threats and intimidation on the other.

Greenpeace couldn't even be bothered to respond. No peace there.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: The Climate Change agenda

Postby Karl Heidenreich » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:09 pm

RF;

Climate Change activists are the ex-Cold War paficists and commies. No one has ever explained to me how General Motors is to blame for the Ice Age of 70,000 years ago and the extintion of the Mamuts...
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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RF
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Re: The Climate Change agenda

Postby RF » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:00 am

Indeed.

In the UK we have hospital car parking charges for all, including patients, imposed in the name of climate change. I'm not clear as to how the fleecing of hospital patients, doctors, staff and visitors in the UK is supposed to help stop the current fires in Queensland, Australia.

It may not surprise you to learn that one of the most fanatical of the climate change luddites is the European Union, never slow to get on to another bid for some empire building.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

Byron Angel

Re: The Climate Change agenda

Postby Byron Angel » Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:30 pm

Karl Heidenreich wrote:RF;

Climate Change activists are the ex-Cold War paficists and commies. No one has ever explained to me how General Motors is to blame for the Ice Age of 70,000 years ago and the extintion of the Mamuts...




..... The humorously ironic aspect is that back in the early 70's several of the selfsame instigators of this "global warming" canard were breathlessly predicting an impending new ice age. We should take this as a lesson in the very real power of propaganda.


Byron

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RF
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Re: The Climate Change agenda

Postby RF » Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:59 pm

This is it isn't it? My guess is that after 2015 the mantra on climate change will swing back to an impending Ice Age, which in fact is what I think is a more likely scenario given that this current climatical period is overdue for the onsett of a new ice age.

Ho hum, will they then tell us to hike up our emissions of carbon dioxide? And tell us that poluution is good for us?
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Re: The Climate Change agenda

Postby Karl Heidenreich » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:12 pm

I think the equation is very simple for these bozos: climate change = progress/industry/well being = capitalism/work/being serious... so... I don´t wanna work, I´m a loser = let´s tackle it somehow = no missiles in Germany (1980ies) = no gas emisions (2000ies) = let´s return to the caves....
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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Re: The Climate Change agenda

Postby Bgile » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:38 pm

I'm glad you guys have it all figured out. I hadn't realized it was that simple.

Byron Angel

Re: The Climate Change agenda

Postby Byron Angel » Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:01 am

Bgile wrote:I'm glad you guys have it all figured out. I hadn't realized it was that simple.



..... The issue is that it is NOT simple. The claims of the anthropogenic global warming side fail to stand up objective to scientific scrutiny. The climate forecast modelling upon which they base their case cannot even reliably reproduce climatic event in retrospect and have proven to be anywhere from 100 to 400 pct off in attempts to forecast even near-term climate events. The absolutely mammoth economic sacrifices being demanded are simply unjustifiable on the basis of the existing evidence.

My opinion, of course.

Byron

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Re: The Climate Change agenda

Postby Bgile » Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:59 am

Well, unlike you guys, I don't know what is causing global warming. However, from my point of view, it doesn't matter.

We are building wind turbines. People are being employed to make them, and they make us less dependent on the middle east.

We are constructing light rail so people can go all over town without taking their cars, and that makes us less dependent on the middle east.

We are making lots of bike paths, and people are riding bikes. That's good for them, and makes us less dependent on the middle east.

Cars are getting more efficient, and that makes us ... etc.

All of our appliances are getting more efficient.

Houses are being built to be more thermally efficient. That produces good economic side benefits.

The city doesn't have as much smog and old people and people with Asthma are doing better.

Lots of good things are happening here where I live, and I like them. If it turns out they are helpful with global warming, fine.

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RF
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Re: The Climate Change agenda

Postby RF » Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:26 am

Bgile,

The developments you cite I fully support, and most of them will happen without the current climate change panic. None of them will affect the climate in any way.

What you don't mention are the taxes that are levied by governments and quangos to further their own interests which are raised in the name of climate change. In Britain this has created a whole new nomenklatura which I call the ''climate change industry'' the taxes in support of them won't affect the climate in any way.
For example, we have car parking charges for patients, staff, doctors and visitors to our hospitals imposed by new quangos specifically in the name of climate change whereas previously there was no charging and no reason for charging. Yes, we are taxing the sick to raise revenue for quangos, who are not elected, not accountable to the public. and whose names are often concealed from the public. All in the name of saving the planet.
Now I don't believe that this sort of insidious taxation is going to stop the forest fires in Queensland or California, do you?

In the USA you at least were fortunate that your previous president, for all his faults, didn't buy the climate change propaganda. President Obama does, but not to the same extent as the EU. We shall see how far he goes.

And no, I don't think I have it all worked out. In Britain our climate is sufficiently variable to make weather forecasting far more difficult to accurately predict than it is in the USA. If our Met Office has difficulties in getting next weeks forecast right, how the heck can they get it right for thirty years time?
I don't know what the climate will be like in thirty years time. It will affect me, as under current life expectancy I should still be around then. What I do know is that hospital car parking charges won't affect the weather one iota. Neither will the other taxes imposed by quangos.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

Bgile
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Re: The Climate Change agenda

Postby Bgile » Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:18 pm

I guess I misunderstood. I thought you were questioning the cause of climate change, not that it was happening. It's obviously happening. The north polar ice cap is receding. We are sending ships where we have never been able to send them.

We are sometimes raising taxes on vehicles and gasoline, but it's generally state by state and the population votes on it. That may or may not have global warming as part of it's rationale, but what it does do is reduce pollution, reduce gas consumption, provide money to repair roads, for highway police, etc.

I think gas is still cheaper here than in Britain, but many of us have to travel long distances routinely so we use a lot more of it. We are terribly dependent on the Middle East, Venezuela, etc for our oil. For that reason, we would almost be forced to go to war if Iran closed the straits of Hormuz.

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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: The Climate Change agenda

Postby Karl Heidenreich » Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:54 am

Let´s remember a guy here which, with all his faults, can be taken as an example: Bob Geldorf. He is the one guy to whom the World is in debt for the Live Aid, granted a knighthood from the British, a Man of Peace recipient and with a Nobel Prize nomination (also founder of Father´s Rights Movement). He is well known also for his part in Pink Floyd´s "The Wall". We can say he is part of the progressist nomenklatura. And he was the one that came, once, to be hated by the Greenpeace and enviromentalists when he came saying that the world must stop thinking in small terms (in what Energy is about) and start thinking big time in nuclear power.

The West has the capability to depend less in Hugo Chávez´Venezuela or the terrorist sympthatetic countries of the Middle East: nuclear power. But it´s political incorrect to say so. About the cars, still there is no electric car that can take duplicate the performance of a internal combustion car.

I do agree that Human Kind has done terrible harm to the enviroment, a lot on the basis of greed or ignorance or sheer evil. I also believe that our actions require our attention to undo those evils and try to behave in accordance to Nature the best we can. And to do that, we do require objective assesment of the problems and the actions required. But we must not fall to the spell of the activists or the politicians that, in reality, would die of being deprived of their A/C equipped cars and high tech apartments with hi fi blue ray reproducers and the ozone destroying jet airliners that take them country hopping to give lectures against the same airlines that put them in first class for acumulative milleage.

At least in my country this activists are the same ones that use to break windows and burnt the US flag when one US destroyer came to pay a friendly visit to our ports.

Warmest regards,
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill

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RF
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Re: The Climate Change agenda

Postby RF » Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:20 am

Bgile,

You have misunderstood - yet again!

My view is that Earth's climate is subject to constant microclimatic change. In the past there have been many instances of almost abrupt dramatic change, both endogenously and exogenously induced. That is scientifically proven. The composition of Earth's atmosphere has been subject to dramatic change over long periods of time. Also Earth's climate has been affected by changes in the Eath's orbit around the Sun, by changes in the axial tilt of the planet, and by the receding gravitational pull of the Moon, as it recedes further away from the Earth. Lastly, and not least, the climate has been affected by the slowing down of the rate of Earth's rotation.

Yes, there is evidence of the Earth warming up, over the last 450 years, as far as reliable records go back. And as the Jason Project first discovered in the 1970's any warming up of the Earth will affect the polar regions the most, because that is where more than 90% of the planets ice is located. So the ice melt in the Arctic, freeing up the North West and North East passages, the ice melt in Greenland, and the ice melt in the Antarctic as seen in the splitting up of the Larsen Ice Shelf is documented fact.

There are two questions here, as I see it. One, what is causing it, two is this a recent trend or has it been going on for far longer than the 450 documented years?
Now it is known in Britain that the period of the sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries was called the ''mini Ice Age'' documented because in winter the River Thames in London regulary froze over, something beyond all credibility today. It is also known that during the Roman occupation of Britain the climate in Britain was almost sub-tropical, far warmer than it is today.
It would seem to me that the Earth is in a regular cycle of warming up and cooling back down again, warm during Roman times, cooler during the Middle Ages. These are natural changes. It is alleged that since the 1970's, per Al Gore, that the human race is responsible for the increase in global temperatures, because of carbon dioxide emissions arising out of human economic activities. His schematic ''An inconvienient truth'' I have seen many times. It takes scientific theory and piles assumption on assumption to reach a set conclusion. I don't find this convincing, in fact it is full of holes. The so called science of human causation of global warming is to me an unproven theory.

One of my interests is astronomy, and I have noticed that most of the scientists questioning the Al Gore version of events are grounded in astronomy. As an amatuer astronomer I know that the carbon dioxide content of Earth's atmosphere is minute, a fraction of one per cent. In the past the carbon dioxide content has been much greater, as high as nine per cent at one stage, but the Earth did not fry, let alone imitate Venus. Also I note that the planet Mars has an atmosphere that is 97% carbon dioxide. Now Mars is further away from the Sun than Earth and the atmosphere is considerably thinner, but even allowing for this Mars is a cold world, so cold it has polar ice caps of largely frozen carbon dioxide. No greenhouse effect here. In fact taking into account that the evidence on Mars is that it was once considerably warmer with plentiful water, the carbon dioxide failed to prevent Mars from freezing up.

Taking this into account, I don't find that the actual measured increase in the carbon dioxide content of Eart's atmosphere over the last forty years to be that significant in itself, not least because we are starting from such a small base. It may be that the carbon dioxide increase is reactive to and not causal of temperature increase. This is in my view a conjectural matter as it cannot be proved one way or the other.

What does concern me is the politicisation of science, now in much the same way as economics has been politicised and used/abused by politicians and those with a political agenda. This is especially so when scientific opinion is hijacked and distorted into representing one particular view, where contrary views and challenges to the set view are opposed to the extent of denying free speech and expression to its proponants. It is aso especially so when it is used to support taxation and the funding of quangos living off the backs of such hijacked and manipulated opinion, taxation that is unproductive and in other circumstances immoral, such as the taxing of hospital patients for being patients.
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RF
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Re: The Climate Change agenda

Postby RF » Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:29 am

Karl Heidenreich wrote:
I do agree that Human Kind has done terrible harm to the enviroment, a lot on the basis of greed or ignorance or sheer evil. I also believe that our actions require our attention to undo those evils and try to behave in accordance to Nature the best we can. And to do that, we do require objective assesment of the problems and the actions required.
Warmest regards,


I agree absolutely.

Many of the worst examples come from the Soviet bloc. One of the worst is the contraction of the Aral Sea because of grossly excessive water extraction, and the poisoning of Lake Baikal in Siberia.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Re: The Climate Change agenda

Postby Bgile » Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:10 pm

RF wrote:Bgile,

You have misunderstood - yet again!



My apologies. Apparently I did indeed.


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