Forum Members Observations

[minoru genda]

I've been reading this froum for several months now and posted a few threads too. THis is MY opinion of this forum's regular members from what I've read here:

The GOOD. First I will mention a group of guys that it is a pleasure to read their posts, contribute to the forum, and you always learn something from: Tommy303, Dave Saxton, Bill Jurens, Tiornu, Bgile, Terje Langoy, Paul Cadogan, Byron Angel, RnfanDAN, and a few more I don't remember now.

THe BAD. Then there is a second group of what we could call "smart asses". Guys from whom you hardly learn anything, make conflits bigger than they really are, in love with themselves and their knowledge. Guys that if one day leave the forum nobody will miss. lwd, yellowtail3, Mckenny...

THe UGLY. Best example we have is Karl Heindenreich. People who are with all due respect "a pain in the ass" incapable of showing any objectivity at all and like to be the focus of attention.

THe GOOD guys feel pity for the UGLY and ignore them, but are also sick tired of the BAD guys. These BAD guys have fun throwing stones at the UGLY who never know when to shut up. If the UGLY are gone the BAD are likely to disappear as well.

Ideally all members should try to behave like the GOOD guys, and then we all would benefit from it.

Best wishes.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Minoru,

Maybe you are right, you know. I admitt it. And your counsel is not that bad and, if it´s worth something, I have been trying only to find myself, again and again, in the middle of a discussion I regret to be into. Point taken.


Best regards,

The Ugly

[Kyler]

All good points, nonetheless a problem you'll face in nearly every online forum. I am a member of a firearms forum as well, it is MUCH MUCH worse than anything that has occured on this forum since I have been a member. So actually you should feel fortunate.

Don't pick on Karl too much though, he is often the voice of the opposition or the minority on topics. That is very important, since like you said there are people who aren't open to any other ideas or facts but their own. Yes, he pushes peoples buttons but also many people purposely push his buttons. I don't think the forum would be as good as it is without his point of view on many topics.

I think the important thing is to remember to be polite and open minded to others opinions and points of view. If someone posts a unprofessional disagreement with the opinion or fact you have posted, remember to kindly respond, not to respond in kind.

[Bgile]

I think Karl has become more objective over time, and I've tried hard to do the same.

I still have trouble with anger from time to time.

[Legend]

I find the only problem I have is keeping up with you guys once it gets to the sixth page of a thread... so in a sense all of you are as UGLY as they get! But the real problem is poor, poor Legend is too inexperienced to keep up with all of the mathematics beneath the supersonic shells.

But I would also like to come clean with some of the feelings I have. I absolutely love this forum and cannot think of anything better. Since my earlier years I have dreamed of becoming a naval architect, and only recently I have become adept enough to begin to understand the basics of naval strategy and the concepts of warship design. Through many of you I have learned many aspects of debate and other, more subtle subjects that others my age may not appreciate. I cannot think of another forum that I have seen that the members are all so congenial and experienced enough in naval matters to hold their own in the debates that pop up, and still stay on friendly terms with all others participating.

Karl, always keeping the debate going and keeping the subject fresh, with knowledge of many eras of naval history.
BGile, providing much needed technical information and realistic situations and results.
lwd, for often making it hard to let a good thread die, through your tough arguments.
To all the other members who find their own place on here, adding their input and opinions.
And of course to Mr. Jose M. Rico, who continues to keep this site up and running flawlessly.

Sincerely,
Matthew

[lwd]

....
THe BAD. Then there is a second group of what we could call "smart asses". Guys from whom you hardly learn anything, .... Guys that if one day leave the forum nobody will miss. lwd, yellowtail3, Mckenny...
....

If you have not learned anything then I suggest the probelm lies as much or more with you than with us.

[Byron Angel]

....
THe BAD. Then there is a second group of what we could call "smart asses". Guys from whom you hardly learn anything, .... Guys that if one day leave the forum nobody will miss. lwd, yellowtail3, Mckenny...
....

If you have not learned anything then I suggest the probelm lies as much or more with you than with us.

..... You do realize, I trust, that you have succeeded in making Minoru's point for him.


Byron

[lwd]

....
THe BAD. Then there is a second group of what we could call "smart asses". Guys from whom you hardly learn anything, .... Guys that if one day leave the forum nobody will miss. lwd, yellowtail3, Mckenny...
....

If you have not learned anything then I suggest the probelm lies as much or more with you than with us.

..... You do realize, I trust, that you have succeeded in making Minoru's point for him.

Have I? Perhaps. On the other hand I try to attack the post and not the poster. I find for instance that I've learned something from all of our regular posters and most of those who post infrequently. But I'll admit I took his post a direct personal insult. Perhpas he has an encyclopdic knowledge of the subjects that we've discussed but I doubt that at least some of the info those on his list of "Bad" is not not new to him. As for his assessment it also is presumtious and if he's read and understood most of the posts on this forum obviously fallacious.

I guess it comes down to. If he wants to start a personal attack thread he can expect to get some heat in return. I do expect this thread to be locked or deleted soon because of that.

[Byron Angel]

Have I? Perhaps. On the other hand I try to attack the post and not the poster. I find for instance that I've learned something from all of our regular posters and most of those who post infrequently. But I'll admit I took his post a direct personal insult. Perhpas he has an encyclopdic knowledge of the subjects that we've discussed but I doubt that at least some of the info those on his list of "Bad" is not not new to him. As for his assessment it also is presumtious and if he's read and understood most of the posts on this forum obviously fallacious.

I guess it comes down to. If he wants to start a personal attack thread he can expect to get some heat in return. I do expect this thread to be locked or deleted soon because of that.

..... I think that the thrust of Minoru's post is not so much about the quality of information and interpretations as it is about forum collegiality and decorum. There is nothing at all wrong with debate, however vigorous; but combative, hyperbolic, and demeaning rhetoric really do no good for forum ambiance.

My opinion, of course.


Byron

[Karl Heidenreich]

lwd;

I do expect that this thread is not locked nor deleted. We must learn and if someone comes and called me "ugly" I want to know why and if there is something I could learn. I welcome this heads up and do not concur in the use of censorship to ban what does not suit us.

Of course, my humble opinion...

[lwd]

..... I think that the thrust of Minoru's post is not so much about the quality of information and interpretations as it is about forum collegiality and decorum. There is nothing at all wrong with debate, however vigorous; but combative, hyperbolic, and demeaning rhetoric really do no good for forum ambiance.

My opinion, of course.

Well let's look at what he said:

...
THe BAD. Then there is a second group of what we could call "smart asses". Guys from whom you hardly learn anything, make conflits bigger than they really are, in love with themselves and their knowledge. Guys that if one day leave the forum nobody will miss.
THe UGLY. Best example we have is Karl Heindenreich. People who are with all due respect "a pain in the ass" incapable of showing any objectivity at all and like to be the focus of attention.
....

Doesn't look like it to me. Indeed by your own statment I think it quallfies as pretty combative, hyperbolic, and demeaning. If you feel someone steps over the line then either call them on it in thread or send them a pm so they know exactly what you are talking about this sort of vague accusation and lumping of individuals does little or nothing to help.

... We must learn and if someone comes and called me "ugly" I want to know why and if there is something I could learn. I welcome this heads up and do not concur in the use of censorship to ban what does not suit us.

Of course, my humble opinion...

Well I'm just going by when things have gotten personal before. Not requesting that this thread be deleated. However I'm not sure it servse much purpose. I don't think I've ever posted insults like the above about anyone on this board. Sure I get frustrated sometimes. Frequently with you but it's not because you are ugly (I have no idea if you are) or "incapable of showing any objectivity" it's because most of the time you don't seem to understand or acknowedge the point I'm trying to make. The question that then comes up is that my fault or yours? Obviously I'm trying to do a good job of communicating but that doesn't meen I am. With regards to the objectivy point you do tend to see things in black and white but have shown that given enough hard data you will change your mind. That's another problem I have with the above critique it's based on invalid assumptions. Whether or not this thread will have a postive or negative overall effect is still a matter oquestion.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Whether or not this thread will have a postive or negative overall effect is still a matter oquestion.

It´s already doing good. You are making analysis on yourself and finding good points. I welcome that, too, because I do not regard you as BAD (nor anyone on this forum), just stubborn. And to be honest, my endless discussions with you have help me in two directions:

1. I have been forced to made my own research (expensive I must say) which is half way still.

2. Technically you are quite knowledgable, so I will be lying if I say I have not learned from you too. Which I must thank.

However I do still think you need to be more flexible and avoid navweaps as your source. Anyway if someday I meet you I will buy the beers, don´t worry about that, this is not personal but just "academic".

My humble (but honest) opinion.

[minoru genda]

First of all I would like to point out that I don't have anything personal against anybody here. I'm just giving my opinion of what I feel of the forum users. lwd- is not that I have not learn anything from people like you but the way you challenge people, (particularly Karl Heindenreich), quoting every single sentence, asking for a source everytime, etc. even if you get the facts right, it is many times counterproductive. That attitude may have the opposite effect and make other people afraid to ask and and shy to participate in further discussions. People should be able to participate in the forum without feeling they are taking a test being watched by "teacher lwd" who is keeping an eye of everything said and ready to put things straight. User Mckenny is another example, with his obsession of Tiger tanks and trying to demonstrate at all cost his points of view no matter if he humiliates the "stupid ignorant on the other side". Again even if he is right, the way he address people is not nice either. and what is worst sometimes it seems that you guys do that in purpuse to make the other side overreact back at you (case of Mr. Heindenreich), and then all get nasty. People usually get piss off at this behaviour, and you guys must realize that are talking to normal people who have feelings as well. How many threads have you guys started? All I can see is a series of quotes questioning what others say. Why don't you give others the chance to question what you say?

I don't like Mr. Heidenreich behaviour either. I just stopped reading the last thread about "Ambrose Sindrome" because it is the same old story again and again. When we don't get a political sermon about how bad the commies were, we get the LeMay, Patton, MacArthur, Reagan praise, etc. Repetitive and Annoying!!! If a moderator wants to close or delete this thread go ahead. I won't be the one guilty of creating further trouble here, I just wanted to share my thoughts here.

[yellowtail3]

so which one of us are you, minoru????

[Karl Heidenreich]

There is a saying in Costa Rica, that translated to English goes something like this:

"Not one of us is like a shinny golden coin to be good for everyone else" which is obviously the case here.

I don't like Mr. Heidenreich behaviour either. I just stopped reading the last thread about "Ambrose Sindrome" because it is the same old story again and again. When we don't get a political sermon about how bad the commies were, we get the LeMay, Patton, MacArthur, Reagan praise, etc. Repetitive and Annoying!!!

LeMay, Patton, McArthur & Reagan? Is a shame Mr. Genda didn´t read the "Ambrosian Syndrome" thread, in which I was called anti American by some... because all the mentioned praised ones, I do believe, are Americans. That makes the case for that thread, at least.

Anyway, of those in Sergio Leone´s spaghetti western the best actor (and character) was the Ugly, Eliah Wallach, who also played the character of evil Calvera in the "Magnificent Seven" classic with Yul Brynner, Steve McQueen and a very good bunch of trigger happy guys.