Obama´s mosque

[Karl Heidenreich]

Other articles regarding the peacefull, westernized muslims that want to build a mosque nearby the 9/11 Ground Zero site, just to put more grievances on the WTC victim's families, which mean nothing to Obama, Bgile and USA liberals who defend the muslim's religious freedom:

http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMi ... illing.htm

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... lling.html

http://www.islamist-watch.org/928/does- ... r-killings

Also...

Number of victims of the WTC attacks that are being neglected by Barack Obama:

World Trade Center: 2,606 dead
Flight 11: 87 dead
United 175: 60 dead

Pentagon: 125 dead
American 77: 59 dead

United 93: 40 dead


But...

Pearl Harbor attack casualties:

Military: 2,402
Civilian: 57

For less causalties the US fought a World War and dropped two atomic bombs over Japan after flatenned Germany. Today, for a higher and all inocent civilian casualty list the US President (and Bgile) agree that is rightfull and proper to build an enemy cultural and religios center two blocks away from Ground Zero. Why Obama do not propose to build a equestian statue of Hitler at Auschwitz or a Japanese Wartime Heroe Temple exactly in front of USS Arizona.../ Maybe the Imans can draft more terrorists in New York, laughing how easily is to fool liberals.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Hey, there are some posters here that defend the rights of gay people. And at the same time believe that Islam is a westerniced tolerant religion and culture. Watch this:

http://leftoutinamerica.wordpress.com/2 ... her-links/

This happens in a western capital... err... big city.

We have also these comments from an westernized and cult islamic guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OvVd3VH ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L4MWjxxKBg

It's good to know that I'm accused of being a neo nazi.... by the same people that support these bozos... let them preach intolerance two blocks away of 9/11!

[Bgile]

I waited a long time to post on this topic because I thought it would just encourage Karl's hateful diatribe. I now wish I had listened to my inner self and kept silent. With luck and patience I can stay that way.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Bgile:

I waited a long time to post on this topic because I thought it would just encourage Karl's hateful diatribe. I now wish I had listened to my inner self and kept silent. With luck and patience I can stay that way.

Of course the hate diatribe is mine. Haven't you seen anything that I have been posting: the honor killings, the attack on gay people, the REAL diatribes of hate from this people you want to build a mosque neaby the Ground Zero place? Have you took the time to read the texts and watch the videos?

Dont' try to put the bigotry on me... I do not support murderers and real baby killers.

[Bgile]

Bgile:

I waited a long time to post on this topic because I thought it would just encourage Karl's hateful diatribe. I now wish I had listened to my inner self and kept silent. With luck and patience I can stay that way.

Of course the hate diatribe is mine. Haven't you seen anything that I have been posting: the honor killings, the attack on gay people, the REAL diatribes of hate from this people you want to build a mosque neaby the Ground Zero place? Have you took the time to read the texts and watch the videos?

Dont' try to put the bigotry on me... I do not support murderers and real baby killers.

Karl, I don't excuse the horrible things that are done in the name of Islam. The difference between you and me is I don't advocate doing similar things to innocent people for revenge against the perpetrators of these things. That would make me just like them and wouldn't solve anything. I do believe in targeting the actual leaders, such as Bin Laden and his ilk. I don't think it helps much, but I feel better when I learn we have managed to kill one of them.

[boredatwork]

I'm done with this thread, and done with this site.

Congrats Karl, you've won.

[lwd]

...it's even possible that there are already other houses of worship in the area.

There are including at least one mosque. From an NPR report on the issue.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Bgile:

Karl, I don't excuse the horrible things that are done in the name of Islam. The difference between you and me is I don't advocate doing similar things to innocent people for revenge against the perpetrators of these things. That would make me just like them and wouldn't solve anything.

I do not support revenge. Revenge is for the weak. I am takling of survival, of an entire civilization, ours, and of our people, physically. The agressive course of action has been dictated by the enemy, they have chosen war, not us. We didn't destroy any significant landmark of theirs, we didn't kill our daughters for using blue jeans, we didn't kill gay people or hijack planes, or put bombs in school buses or subways and commit acts of massive murder.

When it comes to defensive action and survival methods get harsh inmediately. That is why the US bombed Berlin, Hamburg, Dresden, Tokio, Hiroshima and Nagasaki... still History and mankind accept those as necesarry (well... maybe not Dresden) but what the nazis and Japanese did as crimes. They commited those crimes believing them necesarry for dominion over others (as Islam does to take over an infidel world and impose the sharia) but at the end are no other thing than crimes.

I do believe in targeting the actual leaders, such as Bin Laden and his ilk. I don't think it helps much, but I feel better when I learn we have managed to kill one of them.

Bin Laden and his thugs are just a group. What about the Palestine terrorits? They are another group that has nothing to do with Bin Laden, except that they liked each other. What about Iran? No Bin Laden there, and we are talking, as the nazis and Imperial Japanese, in a country, a nation with armed forces. What about Somalia, Sudan, the Pakistani terrorists at Bombai, etc. etc. But, even more important, what about the crowds that are simpathetic to them, those that dance and sing at the streets of Cairo or Islamabad when westerners are killed? What about the guys that beat it's daughters to death or will put on fire a danish's judge house?
It's not "just a group". It's a culture and they are using our western laws to attack us. If, by any act of God, the Us get's Bin Laden nothing is goimng to change, violence will not stop. I foresee we will come to Hamburg, Tokio and Hiroshima again. You don't... not a problem, wait and see.

[Karl Heidenreich]

boreatwork:

I'm done with this thread, and done with this site.

Congrats Karl, you've won.

I won nothing. I am "just" right. The world will won the day we control these islamic people in a way they could not harm us anymore. That day is victory.

[lwd]

... It's not "just a group". It's a culture and they are using our western laws to attack us. If, by any act of God, the Us get's Bin Laden nothing is goimng to change, violence will not stop. I foresee we will come to Hamburg, Tokio and Hiroshima again. You don't... not a problem, wait and see.

The problem is your approach won't work. What is needed is to attack the "culture" and not the people. Or at least not focus on attacking the people. There are areas where that should be persued (Afganistan for instance) but in other areas the the thing to attacks is the perceptions and contradictions inherent in the dogma of the culture. In some ways this issue has helped. For instance on one NPR report which I think I already mentioned an interview with a Lebanese journalist indicated that there was actally a lot of admiration generated for the major of New York for his stand particularly when held up vs the position of a number of the Med East governements. Another area that can help is to create a situation where they at least hope to have a productive, peaceful, and reasonably well off life. This has happened to a large extent with moslems in the US and I suspect Canada. It seems to be less so in Europe and is certainly not the case in many ME countries at least for the majority. The exampe of the Jews and Israel vs the Palestinians and Arabs is very illustritive. When the state of Israel was founded many Jews were expelled from Arab countries. Isreal welcomed them and put them to work and they are now for the most part productive functioning members of that society. The Palestinians on the other hand were encouraged by the Arab countries to leave their homes in Israel for "temporary" camps. In spite of haveing the resorces available from the confiscated Jewish lands and possessions the Arabs did not welcome or even allow the Pallestinians to resettle. The result is refuge camps that have existed for what 60+ years now. Camps where the quality of life is at best described as marginal. It's little wonder that they are recruiting grounds for extremist.

[Bgile]

Karl,

I agree that the problem is with a subculture of a religion, specifically Wahabism. This should be a problem for the Chinese as well as us, but they have played it intelligently by sitting by watching us make fools of ourselves and spend our treasure while they work on their economy. If we weren't doing that, China would eventually have to take steps of their own ... in this issue they are natural allies of ours.

Iran is a different problem ... they hate the Jews for talking over Palestine. Iran would like to create a new Caliphate in the Middle East. Iran sponsors Hezbollah, which doesn't target western cultures other than Israel. Not all of Iran, mainly the right wing Shiites who overthrew the brutal regime of the Shah that we were supporting. Kind of like Batista in Cuba. We saw them as counters to Communism, and blew it.

Practically speaking, what specifically do you suggest we can do about all this? You make generalities about the use of military force but I don't see specifics.

[RF]

from the confiscated Jewish lands and possessions the Arabs did not welcome or even allow the Pallestinians to resettle. The result is refuge camps that have existed for what 60+ years now. Camps where the quality of life is at best described as marginal. It's little wonder that they are recruiting grounds for extremist.

What you seem to be implying lwd is that the ''palestinian question'' should not be an Arab-Isreali problem but an Arab-Palestinian problem, that the PLO was going after the Isreali's instead of Jordan and Egypt. Perhaps its a shame Yasser Arafat didn't see it that way....

[RF]

There are areas where that should be persued (Afganistan for instance)

Initially I would agree, but the Afghan government and army is corrupt and the Taliban can make themselves the hereos to the local population. As in Vietnam the US is left providing military support for weak and increasingly discredited regimes, so we now have an almost unwinnable war in Afghanistan - after initially being in a winning position.

[RF]

... It's not "just a group". It's a culture and they are using our western laws to attack us. If, by any act of God, the Us get's Bin Laden nothing is goimng to change, violence will not stop. I foresee we will come to Hamburg, Tokio and Hiroshima again. You don't... not a problem, wait and see.

The problem is your approach won't work.

What you are left with is a halfway house position - the only answer to radical Islam in the West seemingly being the pursuit of the policies of the British National Party and expelling the non-Caucasian populations, reversing decades of immigration. This is in itself the recipe for such conflict that civil war would result.

[lwd]

from the confiscated Jewish lands and possessions the Arabs did not welcome or even allow the Pallestinians to resettle. The result is refuge camps that have existed for what 60+ years now. Camps where the quality of life is at best described as marginal. It's little wonder that they are recruiting grounds for extremist.

What you seem to be implying lwd is that the ''palestinian question'' should not be an Arab-Isreali problem but an Arab-Palestinian problem, that the PLO was going after the Isreali's instead of Jordan and Egypt. Perhaps its a shame Yasser Arafat didn't see it that way....

I didn't mean to imply that. I think though if you look at the origins of the conflict it has to be considered an Arab/Isreali/Palastenian problem. The solution at this point almost has to be Israeli/Palestenian although the Arabs could help (and to some extent are).