Herman Cain for US President?

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RF
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Re: Herman Cain for US President?

Postby RF » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:50 pm

Looking at the available candidates, I think that Virgil Goode might get my vote if I were a US citizen.

Pty really that he wasn't able to contest the Republican nomination.....
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Dave Saxton
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Re: Herman Cain for US President?

Postby Dave Saxton » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:56 pm

The problem with "alternative" liberterian and conservative or moderate candidates is that their rob votes from the main conservative caandidate that could otherwise win. This is how Clinton won in 92. It would be the same as voting for Obama in Virginia. On the other hand the more Ralph Nader type and Green Party..Social Justice Party type candidates on the ballot the better!
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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RF
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Re: Herman Cain for US President?

Postby RF » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:48 am

This is why you need the alternative vote electoral system - scrap the electoral college and let the popular vote decide.
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Dave Saxton
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Re: Herman Cain for US President?

Postby Dave Saxton » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:08 pm

I think the electoral college is a good thing. With popular vote only, only the large urban centers and their concerns would be represented really.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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RF
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Re: Herman Cain for US President?

Postby RF » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:33 pm

But doesn't the electoral college favour the big urban centres at the expense of low population but large rural area states? California, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio carry clout with each state having a ''winner take all'' block vote, wheras the likes of Vermont, Montana, Wyoming and Alaska are irrelevant even if put together?
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Dave Saxton
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Re: Herman Cain for US President?

Postby Dave Saxton » Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:13 pm

Several disparate small states don't necessarly have common intrests or will band together. However, in the electoral college a small population state has a greater voice than its population. For example, Wyoming has three electoral votes but a population that would equate to less than one. At the foundation of the ellectorial college is federalism and states rights.

http://www.heritage.org/research/report ... ote-scheme
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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Re: Herman Cain for US President?

Postby frontkampfer » Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:53 pm

The Founders were very wise in devising the EC. As Dave said it gives smaller states a chance to make a difference. If we went only on the popular vote what would be the incentive for the rest of the country if only the big states "Picked the winner"? I for one am so glad that the Founders had the foresight to anticipate the tactics of the democrat party!
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ede144
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Re: Herman Cain for US President?

Postby ede144 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:11 am

frontkampfer wrote:The Founders were very wise in devising the EC. As Dave said it gives smaller states a chance to make a difference. If we went only on the popular vote what would be the incentive for the rest of the country if only the big states "Picked the winner"? I for one am so glad that the Founders had the foresight to anticipate the tactics of the democrat party!



I'm pretty sure, nobody from the founders had a marble to foresee todays vote processs. It was a simple technical necessity , similar to the election of the imperator in the holy empire.
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RF
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Re: Herman Cain for US President?

Postby RF » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:24 am

frontkampfer wrote:The Founders were very wise in devising the EC. As Dave said it gives smaller states a chance to make a difference. If we went only on the popular vote what would be the incentive for the rest of the country if only the big states "Picked the winner"? I for one am so glad that the Founders had the foresight to anticipate the tactics of the democrat party!


I don't see that the smaller states make any difference whatsoever - the big block votes of the biggest states in the electoral college decides the winner. That is why the Republican and Democrat candidates spend so much time and effort in ''swing states'' like Ohio. They don't pay any attention to Wyoming, a state virtually guaranteed to deliver its three electoral votes to the Republican candidate. Why should they? The Republicans will win there anyway, the Democrats would be wasting time and effort better spent eleswhere.
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Dave Saxton
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Re: Herman Cain for US President?

Postby Dave Saxton » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:08 pm

The people's voice in small population states would be even more insignificant with popular vote. Consider Wyoming with a population of only 600,000 in a nation of 300 million. Wyoming's three electoral votes would really matter in a really tight race if the democratic candidate failed to obtain 270 electoral votes by a close margin. Now factor in a few other small states that will probably also vote republican. What if the republican candidate just barely obtained 270 electoral votes?
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

Byron Angel
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Re: Herman Cain for US President?

Postby Byron Angel » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:23 am

The founding fathers were under no illusions about the dangers, delicacies, limitations and flaws of the various forms of government. They selected a republic over a pure democracy because of the fatal flaw inherent in democracies, as astutely recounted in Plato's Republic. Hence Benjamin Franklin's comment to a citizen shortly after the signing of the Constitution - "We have given you a republic. Let's see if you can keep it."

B

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RF
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Re: Herman Cain for US President?

Postby RF » Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:50 am

Dave Saxton wrote:The people's voice in small population states would be even more insignificant with popular vote. Consider Wyoming with a population of only 600,000 in a nation of 300 million. Wyoming's three electoral votes would really matter in a really tight race if the democratic candidate failed to obtain 270 electoral votes by a close margin. Now factor in a few other small states that will probably also vote republican. What if the republican candidate just barely obtained 270 electoral votes?


But even here, if that result was expected just a few days before voting, candidates would seek to campaign in a larger swing state to get to the 270 vote threshold.
The other danger, as Al Gore discovered, is that the electoral college could elect a candidate in second place in the popular vote.... personally I think everybodys' vote should be equal which is why I think that it is the popular vote that should decide.
There again, the electoral college could be remodelled to reflect that - by having the larger states, say those with 10 or more electoral votes, having to split the college votes proportionally to the nearest 10% or so to the popular vote in that state.
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frontkampfer
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Re: Herman Cain for US President?

Postby frontkampfer » Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:07 pm

Some states are proposing that but all it does is dilute the states Electoral votes. All I can say about the EC is that it is archaic but it works!
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Re: Herman Cain for US President?

Postby Byron Angel » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:31 am

Government by "popular vote" = Pure Democracy = government by demagoguery, mob rule and passions of the moment. The founding fathers knew their political history well. They chose a republican form of government, which would serve to moderate and temper such extremes.

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Re: Herman Cain for US President?

Postby RF » Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:07 am

I'm not convinced of their wisdom. They failed to find a solution to the issue of centralised federal government verses devolved local or state control, which these issues of the ''popular vote'' generally revolve. Even a bloody civil war couldn't produce a complete solution, except the doctrine of holding the country together by force.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.


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