PRINZ EUGEN to be salvaged

[RF]

Ulrich and Gary,

Both arguments are true. The Germans were in a laberinth built by themselves. Whatever they did was doomed from the start... except, maybe, the U-boat force.

Maybe. It is an atitude and perception based on a cold logic that may not hold in reality, was Bismarck doomed before it sailed....

Put it like this. If Ulrich or Gary were in the shoes of Roman Governor Caius Setonuis Paulinus would they fight the Battle of Watling Street?
Boudicca outnumbered the Romans by about 13 to 1, and had them trapped with no room to manoeuver.

Using the logic implied by Ulrich/Gary the Romans were doomed, no chance whatsoever.

I might add that Setonius Paulinus, one of the most brilliant tacticians in the Roman Army, never lost a battle.

He lost 400 men out of 12,000 at Watling Street, Boudicca's forces lost 80,000 + dead, a bloodier battle than the first day of the Somme.

[Karl Heidenreich]

RF,

Battle of Cannae, the other way around.

About your point: read Sun Tzu: when trapped and desperate, soldiers can do the impossible. But in naval warfare the laws of Earth and Heaven (from Sun Tzu) only applies if you got:
1. Superior technological vessels
2. Superior numbers
3. An officer that can manage those resources (remember Yamamoto outnumbering Nimitz at Midway and losing).

The WWII Germans had none of the above, even if Bismarck was a better ship, because it lack of some elements as the British radar or inteligence gathering.

[RF]

RF,

Battle of Cannae, the other way around.

About your point: read Sun Tzu: when trapped and desperate, soldiers can do the impossible. But in naval warfare the laws of Earth and Heaven (from Sun Tzu) only applies if you got:
1. Superior technological vessels
2. Superior numbers
3. An officer that can manage those resources (remember Yamamoto outnumbering Nimitz at Midway and losing).

The WWII Germans had none of the above, even if Bismarck was a better ship, because it lack of some elements as the British radar or inteligence gathering.

Add to that list an aggresive commander not afraid to take more risks, rather than a pessimistic commander, always on the defensive, always fearing the worst.

Remenber the dictum of Oliver Cromwell - ''strike while the iron is hot, and make it hot by striking.'' It applies at sea as much as on land, Muller on Emden in 1914 springs to mind, even though he was bound to be caught and defeated eventually.

[longreach]

I would think that the Prinz Eugen would be near impossible(hi Karl )to raise in one piece.well the cost would be HUGE.
LET HER REST !
she earned it

on to the subject of the german uboat force,they were both very good and very brave.
BUT (again) on both attempts to close the convoy routes across the atlantic(WW1 andWW2)the german uboats failed.I think the most successful sub operations were by the US navy(sub-force pacific) against the japanese in the pacific.

[Bgile]

I think the most successful sub operations were by the US navy(sub-force pacific) against the japanese in the pacific.

I agree. Toward the end of the war it got so one sided that there were US submarines deploying with two 5" deck guns and centralized gunnery fire control so they could sink things that weren't worth a torpedo more efficiently.