Senator Ted Cruz for US President?

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Garyt
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Re: Senator Ted Cruz for US President?

Post by Garyt » Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:15 am

Have you ever read Plato's Republic, or the Federalist Papers, or Gibbons' Decline and Fall, or anything by Hayek or Von Mises, or even David Horowitz?
I find this interesting as Hamilton was opposed to the Bill of Rights, as his thought was there was not a need for the constitution to state the rights of the citizens.

Sounds like he was in favor of a strong government with control of it's people, something the "left" is bashed for on a daily basis :D

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Re: Senator Ted Cruz for US President?

Post by Garyt » Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:43 am

Are you on the side of liberty or on the side of tyranny? It is really no more complicated than that.
Well, as one of the conservative authors you pointed out is against the Bil of Rights, I think it's a bit more complicated than that. :D

What you are saying is a glittering generality. You have by no means come up with anything that suggests leftist/socialism is tyranny, but yet you state it as fact. Once again, strong emotional words in place of factual data.

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Dave Saxton
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Re: Senator Ted Cruz for US President?

Post by Dave Saxton » Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:32 pm

If you need me to spell out such basic facts for you, then we are not ready to engage in a productive discussion. The debates the Framers engaged in requires some understanding of the context, and a perspective of the history of American Marxism since the turn of the 20th century is in order. Horowitz is good for that. I suggest Radical Son and the Black Book of the American Left Black Book can be perused electronically at his website:

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

northcape
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Re: Senator Ted Cruz for US President?

Post by northcape » Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:30 pm

I've lived for two years in the US, and I eventually go back there. I liked it a lot, and it was very interesting to notice differences to Europe in society matters and the perception of them - on issues where I actually did not expect them.
A statement like "Are you on the side of liberty or on the side of tyranny? It is really no more complicated than that" in the context of a discussion like in this thread is a very good examples of one of these differences. Debating on a complex topic like socialism, and nailing it and your counterpart down to yes-no question without any actual relevance to the debate, is something which still leaves me speechless (since that maybe is the intention behind). I assure you that most people in western European societies (which maybe comprise 90% of all population in Europe), including me, don't feel to live in tyranny, despite that you would call these socialist societies. Which, in fact is ironic since many, if not most, people here will tell you about a strong decline in social welfare within the last 10 to 20 years. I'm not saying that the European society system is better or worse than the US society system. That is a completely different discussion, and it is for everyone to chose what he or she thinks is better. As a side note, all good things, like cheap and high quality public transport, affordable health care for almost everyone, and others, come not for free here either.
Live is not black and white, and to pose questions like ""Are you on the side of liberty or on the side of tyranny?" are maybe born out of thoughts and theoretical concepts, but with little relevance to real life. You can read your Horovitz and Marx and Plato and whatever, but these are books only, and as every ancient book, outdated very quickly compared to the constant development and change of society. I'm not saying that we should not learn from the past, but to see the world and different life styles and concepts of society is of utmost importance.

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Re: Senator Ted Cruz for US President?

Post by Garyt » Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:34 pm

I appreciate the information, Dave.

After looking at it a bit though, I find it hard to take seriously in all honesty. It has it's list of leftists that it considers dangerous, and this includes Barbara Streisand and Bruce Springsteen. Here are some clips as to why this group has a problem with 2 of the afore mentioned people:

Streisand:
Over the years, Streisand has given money to the campaigns of numerous political candidates, all Democrats.
n 1986 Streisand established and endowed the Streisand Foundation, through which she supports organizations that share her political and social ideals in such areas as environmental activism, civil rights, race relations, civil liberties, gay rights, voter education, women’s rights (including abortion rights), nuclear disarmament, gun control, poverty, and AIDS
Streisand passionately believes that “global warming” is caused by human industrial activity, and that the U.S. should do more to combat the problem.
Springsteen:
In June 2000 Springsteen debuted a song that referenced the fatal New York City police shooting of Amadou Diallo, an illegal immigrant from Africa who the officers mistakenly thought was reaching for a gun.
Springsteen over the years has also contributed his talents to raise funds for food banks, protest factory closings, support labor unions, bring attention to the Human Rights Now tour of Amnesty International, and many other concerns.
Really?? These make someone dangerous?? How dare someone think that global warming is real and that man infuences it!

Honestly Horowitz reeks of paranoia, and the Xenophobia I had mentioned earlier on this thread that seem part of the "new" republican party.

Amusingly AARP is listed as a "bad" organization as well.

It's funny, it seems that this group that references Horowitz is against anything that campaigns for rights of minorities or women.

This organization reeks of strong McCarthyism and Paranoia. I stated earlier that some conservatives thing Bin Laden is still alive. being kept hidden by Obama. Would not surprise me if this if the group that came up with that.

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Re: Senator Ted Cruz for US President?

Post by Garyt » Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:46 pm

You can read your Horovitz and Marx and Plato and whatever, but these are books only, and as every ancient book, outdated very quickly compared to the constant development and change of society. I'm not saying that we should not learn from the past, but to see the world and different life styles and concepts of society is of utmost importance.
I appreciate what you are saying here, northcape.

What I think is relevant is not the thoughts of Marxist Communism, or our founding fathers plans for the country. These are in many ways out dated - for example, many of the founding fathers were slave owners, in stark contrast to race relations of today.

My thoughts are how do the various schools of thought influence us in the US today. And from what I have seen, the Democrats do a better job of adding enough socialism in with our capitalism. As I said before, I think most agree with some socialistic programs or government restrictions on capitalism (Worker's Comp, minimum wage, Overtime pay, etc.), it's just HOW MUCH socialism they want to see. And there are some on the far right that would prefer if we had non of the social programs or restrictions I mention above.

Dave, Let me ask you a question -Do you think we should have the following:

1) Workers Compensation
2) Overtime pay
3) Children's Work restrictions
4) Minimum wage at it's current level
5) Social Security

I'm really interested here, I might give me a better idea of where you are coming from.

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Re: Senator Ted Cruz for US President?

Post by Steve Crandell » Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:51 pm

northcape wrote:You can read your Horovitz and Marx and Plato and whatever, but these are books only, and as every ancient book, outdated very quickly compared to the constant development and change of society. I'm not saying that we should not learn from the past, but to see the world and different life styles and concepts of society is of utmost importance.
Very well said, and since you mentioned you have lived here you must understand we are not all like that.

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Dave Saxton
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Re: Senator Ted Cruz for US President?

Post by Dave Saxton » Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:10 pm

Yes North Cape, I am deliberately over simplifying because I'm not interested in responding in detail to an ever expanding list of non-sequentors, and barely related issues, and what I consider to be obvious falsities.

Europeans may be used to Gov intrusion, severe taxation, and regulation of their daily lives, but Americans are not. Most don't like it and most don't want it. Even what many may find as fairly benign Gov coercion of behavior, we often consider at least soft tyranny (and yes that is an accepted term to describe it). Many have not changed that about us in 250 years.

That is the thing about Marxism, socialism, communism, whatever you want to call it, be it benign or severe, it requires Gov coercion and a huge bureaucracy to officiate and enforce it. The Framers deliberately wrote the Constitution to insure limited and small Gov. especially at the federal level.

I for one do not consider the gigantic body of administrative law to even be legitimate.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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Re: Senator Ted Cruz for US President?

Post by Dave Saxton » Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:33 pm

Honestly Horowitz reeks of paranoia, and the Xenophobia I had mentioned earlier on this thread that seem part of the "new" republican party.
Horowitz was the darling of the American left and its most articulate spokesmen until his gradual conversion to being a conservative during the mid 70s. Now he is smeared because of his apostate journey away from the "cause". Since he is of Jewish heritage it really is astounding that he could be called xenophobic LOL. I don't expect you to agree with him but by studying his journey you will learn much about the history of Marxism in America, and that is the point.

But even having this discussion tells us that Democrat Party of today is entirely a different party compared to the time of JFK. The Democrat Party of that time would not want to be associated with the socialist brand. Now it is really a socialist party if not in name that can not be compromised with in anyway if your are a true conservative or a constitutionalist.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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Dave Saxton
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Re: Senator Ted Cruz for US President?

Post by Dave Saxton » Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:41 pm

Dave, Let me ask you a question -Do you think we should have the following:

1) Workers Compensation
2) Overtime pay
3) Children's Work restrictions
4) Minimum wage at it's current level
5) Social Security

I'm really interested here, I might give me a better idea of where you are coming from.
I don't understand the relevance of these minor side issues to the discussion.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

northcape
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Re: Senator Ted Cruz for US President?

Post by northcape » Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:52 pm

Don't get me wrong - I am not blaming or condemning anybody. I respect the views, in particular when they are well argued and free of ideology. For me, to ask "are you for liberty or tyranny" is just like asking "do you believe in the Koran or not? ". The implication in some regions these days is "if not, we are gonna behead you, simply because you don't follow our ideology. No further need for discussion"
I am not sure how much this strong divide between conservative / leftish ideologies in the US is related to the very pronounced polarization in the US society overall - if it is a consequence or a cause, or both. While in Europe we have the same poles, we have a more pronounced spectrum inbetween. One the one side this is positive, since there is more relaxed discourse in the society. On the other side, all these weighing of arguments and long discussions among many groups make the societies slow and sometimes inefficient in reacting to challenges and threats. Another problem I have with the "liberty vs. tyranny" statement in the context of this discussion here is the implicit assumption that the western capitalist/democratic system is the best and only one for all times and for everybody. It certainly is for European countries, and for the US, now, given the history and development. On the other hand, a country like China (and its people) are doing very well without democracy now. Speak to people there - the majority does currently not care too much about that, and its stability (about which we in the west are very thankful about) depends very much on its non-democratic government.
So again, the world is colorful and different, it changes all the time, and ideologies are the least useful tool to deal with that. Churchill realized this very well, being a liberal when he was young and adopting more conservative views later, when he was convinced that times were asking for them. He had strong beliefs and convictions, but these were always based on observations in the real world and not on abstract theories or simplistic phrases aiming at dividing people without any need for it.

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Dave Saxton
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Re: Senator Ted Cruz for US President?

Post by Dave Saxton » Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:59 pm

I might give me a better idea of where you are coming from.
I'm a revolutionary. I support the general principles of the American revolution everywhere and for all who may desire them.

I look at most "progressive" political agenda items as a regression, particularly when the individual is run over by the progressive march of the collective.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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Dave Saxton
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Re: Senator Ted Cruz for US President?

Post by Dave Saxton » Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:26 pm

Northcape, I agree that being plain spoken is an Americanism. If you spend much time with Native Americans and their cultures then it can be seen where this aspect of American culture comes from. The Native Americans do have an influence upon the evolution of American culture over the course of several hundreds of years.

Once as an undergraduate I was walking across a university campus one day when I was approached by a film crew from a Japanese TV news station. They wanted to interview me about what I thought defined American culture. My father would have been proud that they found me to be an American Individualist, an American Cowboy. But I have always got along well with different people from very different cultures and nations.

Gary, I do understand from where you are coming from, because I was almost there once at one point during my life's journey. I do have to give some credit to my friend the climate scientist for helping me to see things a bit differently than I did at that point. That's why I don't get too concerned when some of my nieces and nephews go off to university and start to go through that phase.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

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Re: Senator Ted Cruz for US President?

Post by Byron Angel » Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:53 am

"You can read your Horowitz and Marx and Plato and whatever, but these are books only, and as every ancient book, outdated very quickly ... "

This assertion reminds me of that acerbic and true French adage - "The more things change, the more they stay the same." It has been many decades since I studied Plato's Republic, but I can confidently promise that his fundamental wisdom regarding the relationship between citizen and state will never suffer from a shelf life problem.

B

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Re: Senator Ted Cruz for US President?

Post by Steve Crandell » Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:06 am

Byron Angel wrote:"You can read your Horowitz and Marx and Plato and whatever, but these are books only, and as every ancient book, outdated very quickly ... "

This assertion reminds me of that acerbic and true French adage - "The more things change, the more they stay the same." It has been many decades since I studied Plato's Republic, but I can confidently promise that his fundamental wisdom regarding the relationship between citizen and state will never suffer from a shelf life problem.

B
Plato lived in a democracy. We live in a Plutocracy.

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