Political correctness gone mad?

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paul.mercer
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Political correctness gone mad?

Postby paul.mercer » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:57 pm

Gentlemen,
Being of a different (older!) generation I am at a loss to understand the politically correct ideas that are now bandied about these days. here in the UK we have a policeman telling a chemist to stop using male or female hygiene signs, students objecting to and wanting to take down a statue of the college founder, children undergoing experiments in being transgender - the list goes on its almost seems that people are going out of their way to find something to be offended about! Which brings me on the recent troubles in the USA where statues of Confederate soldiers and Generals are being taken down or destroyed. To my way of thinking if all the statues of people who had a blemish on their characters were destroyed, there would be few if any left!

OpanaPointer
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Re: Political correctness gone mad?

Postby OpanaPointer » Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:26 pm

Would you approve of a 200 foot tall statue of the Flying Spaghetti Monster next to the "National" Cathedral in Washington? Would you approve use of your tax dollars (for US taxpayers) to build and maintain that statue?

There's no history on those Confederate monuments, they were political statements for the most part, put up during the Jim Crow era to remind certain people to stay in their places.

northcape
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Re: Political correctness gone mad?

Postby northcape » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:32 pm

paul.mercer wrote:Gentlemen,
Being of a different (older!) generation I am at a loss to understand the politically correct ideas that are now bandied about these days. here in the UK we have a policeman telling a chemist to stop using male or female hygiene signs, students objecting to and wanting to take down a statue of the college founder, children undergoing experiments in being transgender - the list goes on


Can you give us more insights on the "children experiments in being transgender"? I would appreciate some facs, if you have some. Thanks.
And about the rest, maybe some references or more background would be interesting as well. Again, facts. Or is it just supposed to be spreading random propaganda out of any context to support ideology?

paul.mercer wrote:its almost seems that people are going out of their way to find something to be offended about! Which brings me on the recent troubles in the USA where statues of Confederate soldiers and Generals are being taken down or destroyed. To my way of thinking if all the statues of people who had a blemish on their characters were destroyed, there would be few if any left!


And this transition to the monuments was not very smooth, but oh well. You may want to accept that the taking down of the monuments is based on democratic votes in he local councils. (I know, they are all threatened by the left-wing liberal jewish / muslim / transgender / eastcoast fake media, and democracy is only good if it outcomes are 100% inline with your ideology).

My view on the monuments is that they of course represent history, but the perception and judgement of history of course changes with time. Not because we are brainwashed, but the view on historic events can never be wrong or right. While it is an undisputed fact that there was a civil war, and this general did this and that general did that, it is of course not a fact if society nowadays views these deeds as right or wrong.
A monument is not build because there was a General Lee, but because the actions of General Lee were seen as great at this time. Nowadays, many people see this different. So in a democracy, there are arguments against and arguments in favour, and there is a vote in either one or another direction. If you like, call it a clash of ideologies. But the view that a monument should be kept just because it was put in place at one time is very strange to me. It is a similiar discussion as with high judges being traditionalists - e.g. they interpret the constitution in the context of the time it was written, and not in the context of today. Of course you can do this, if you prefer to live in a museum while the world around you is evolving. It is just not good for the society and the well-being of the peope, but since when did ideologists care about that anyway?

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frontkampfer
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Re: Political correctness gone mad?

Postby frontkampfer » Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:56 pm

The monuments should stay! Those who fought for the Confederacy were Americans before secession & if they survived, were Americans after the war. Lincoln, when asked what to do with the Southern leaders said to "let them up easy". He had the wisdom & foresight to see that nothing was to be gained by pursuing them with treason trials. They swore allegiance to the US & got their citizenship back. They returned to the civilian lives but had pride in their service to a lost cause but one that fought the full might & resources of the Federal government to a standstill for most of the war. So these citizens erected monuments to honor the sacrifice they made. This was part of the "let them up easy" philosophy. Unfortunately, that has run into today's iconoclastic tendencies of the left and their fellow travelers in the media. Carried through to the illogical conclusion they will surely scrub our history of any of the accomplishments of the founders because they owned slaves. I for one am not ashamed of my country's history but can accept the human failings of those that made it and I will not judge them by today's standards. If someone doesn't like it, make the most of it!
"I will not have my ship shot out from under my ass!"

OpanaPointer
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Re: Political correctness gone mad?

Postby OpanaPointer » Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:48 pm

"Political correctness" usually means someone isn't comfortable insulting other people these days. Evolution can be uncomfortable, but extinction is the alternative.

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Re: Political correctness gone mad?

Postby OpanaPointer » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:46 am

frontkampfer wrote:The monuments should stay! Those who fought for the Confederacy were Americans before secession & if they survived, were Americans after the war. Lincoln, when asked what to do with the Southern leaders said to "let them up easy". He had the wisdom & foresight to see that nothing was to be gained by pursuing them with treason trials. They swore allegiance to the US & got their citizenship back. They returned to the civilian lives but had pride in their service to a lost cause but one that fought the full might & resources of the Federal government to a standstill for most of the war. So these citizens erected monuments to honor the sacrifice they made. This was part of the "let them up easy" philosophy. Unfortunately, that has run into today's iconoclastic tendencies of the left and their fellow travelers in the media. Carried through to the illogical conclusion they will surely scrub our history of any of the accomplishments of the founders because they owned slaves. I for one am not ashamed of my country's history but can accept the human failings of those that made it and I will not judge them by today's standards. If someone doesn't like it, make the most of it!

The monuments were put up to keep the blacks down during the Jim Crow era. They match closely the rise and decline of the Ku Klux Klan.
The hard right doesn't like "unnecessary spending", but they have no problems with maintaining the foot-on-neck reminders of the slavery era. I don't wan my tax dollars spent that way. Put them in a private location and I'm fine with that. But don't waste money keeping hate alive.

OpanaPointer
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Re: Political correctness gone mad?

Postby OpanaPointer » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:46 am

Dupe.

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frontkampfer
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Re: Political correctness gone mad?

Postby frontkampfer » Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:38 pm

OpanaPointer wrote:Dupe.


Blow it out your sea bag!

Until the day in the not too distant future, when the tolerant left razes Mount Vernon and opens the Thought Reeducation Camp and I get placed in it, I have the right to my opinion which no one need agree. Have an nice day!
"I will not have my ship shot out from under my ass!"

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RF
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Re: Political correctness gone mad?

Postby RF » Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:41 pm

paul.mercer wrote:Gentlemen,
Being of a different (older!) generation I am at a loss to understand the politically correct ideas that are now bandied about these days.


Political correctness is a tool designed to control political expression and how people think.

It used to be called cultural Marxism or class consciousness and those names are the giveaway as to where political correctness comes from. Its practice was pioneered in the USSR initially under Lenin but primarily so under Stalin; it was also used in Nazi Germany as both propaganda and as an instrument of policy in particular racism and anti-Semitism, to condition people into thinking that the genocide of the Jews and other races and ethnic/cultural groups was normal and the right thing to do. Its tools are propaganda and peer group pressure, to squeeze out dissent and any opposing view, to close down any debate by denigration of any opposing views and particulary so of anybody expressing it.

George Orwell gave a classic description of political correctness is his novel Animal Farm - a satire of Stalinist Russia.

But the techniques shown by Orwell are put in practice in most countries in varying degrees. One current example is AGW or ''climate change'' - here a dogma is presented as science but the promoters of this dogma cleverly close down any debate and avoid having to prove their case - as Karl Popper would tell you it is the opposite of science.

What I find to be the real classic in political correctness, thinking of Orwell and his concept of ''double-think'' is that the protaganists invariably describe themselves as anti-fascist to show that any alternative expression is fascist. But in doing this they are acting as fascists - by destroying any other point of view by denigration, denunciation and outright violence.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

OpanaPointer
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Re: Political correctness gone mad?

Postby OpanaPointer » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:34 pm

frontkampfer wrote:
OpanaPointer wrote:Dupe.


Blow it out your sea bag!

Until the day in the not too distant future, when the tolerant left razes Mount Vernon and opens the Thought Reeducation Camp and I get placed in it, I have the right to my opinion which no one need agree. Have an nice day!

Seriously over the top, but that's a right too. But the FUD has really got to you, I see.

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Re: Political correctness gone mad?

Postby OpanaPointer » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:35 pm

RF wrote:Political correctness is a tool designed to control political expression and how people think.

When I see it brought up I'm betting that it means someone isn't happy about not being able to insult people.

northcape
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Re: Political correctness gone mad?

Postby northcape » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:35 am

RF wrote:
paul.mercer wrote:Gentlemen,
Being of a different (older!) generation I am at a loss to understand the politically correct ideas that are now bandied about these days.


But the techniques shown by Orwell are put in practice in most countries in varying degrees. One current example is AGW or ''climate change'' - here a dogma is presented as science but the promoters of this dogma cleverly close down any debate and avoid having to prove their case - as Karl Popper would tell you it is the opposite of science.



What kind of absolute nonsense are you talking? The scientific debate on climate change is going on since 30+ years through peer-reviewed publishing in scientific journals. Forgive my bluntness, but apart from following fake-news and conspiracy theories websites, how much are you engaged in the observation of the real scientific debate on climate change? How many journals on climate science can you name? Are you actualy aware how the scientific peer-review process is working, and what is the average duration until a serious study is published (hint: it takes more than copy&paste an "article" from Breitbart to another propaganda site)? Are you actually interested in science at all? Have you ever published a scientific article? You remind me very much of the new US administration who states that "they want to see peer-reviewed climate science." Hello everybody, this is out there since decades, but obviously you have and always had absolutey zero interest in science so you don't even know this very basic fact.

You give a perfect example of Orwellian speech by completely reversing facts (calling a 30+year open discussion a dogma without debate). And what has Popper to do here? Are you not aware that Popper's falsification statement is a philosophical-scientific statement, and not a practical-scientific statement? Natural sciences are practical processes to serve society and mankind, and work bit by bit. An "ultimate" truth might be found (or falsified) in a mathematical derivation with strict definitions, but every-day natural science is always an ongoing and open debate with usually more questions turning up with every new answer. And the very, very vast majority of all peer-reviewed answers indicate that human CO2 production influences and increases global warming.

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Re: Political correctness gone mad?

Postby OpanaPointer » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:54 am

Faux News fans don't have much to work with...

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RF
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Re: Political correctness gone mad?

Postby RF » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:28 am

northcape wrote:
RF wrote:
paul.mercer wrote:Gentlemen,
Being of a different (older!) generation I am at a loss to understand the politically correct ideas that are now bandied about these days.


But the techniques shown by Orwell are put in practice in most countries in varying degrees. One current example is AGW or ''climate change'' - here a dogma is presented as science but the promoters of this dogma cleverly close down any debate and avoid having to prove their case - as Karl Popper would tell you it is the opposite of science.



What kind of absolute nonsense are you talking? The scientific debate on climate change is going on since 30+ years through peer-reviewed publishing in scientific journals. Forgive my bluntness, but apart from following fake-news and conspiracy theories websites, how much are you engaged in the observation of the real scientific debate on climate change? How many journals on climate science can you name? Are you actualy aware how the scientific peer-review process is working, and what is the average duration until a serious study is published (hint: it takes more than copy&paste an "article" from Breitbart to another propaganda site)? Are you actually interested in science at all? Have you ever published a scientific article? You remind me very much of the new US administration who states that "they want to see peer-reviewed climate science." Hello everybody, this is out there since decades, but obviously you have and always had absolutey zero interest in science so you don't even know this very basic fact.

You give a perfect example of Orwellian speech by completely reversing facts (calling a 30+year open discussion a dogma without debate). And what has Popper to do here? Are you not aware that Popper's falsification statement is a philosophical-scientific statement, and not a practical-scientific statement? Natural sciences are practical processes to serve society and mankind, and work bit by bit. An "ultimate" truth might be found (or falsified) in a mathematical derivation with strict definitions, but every-day natural science is always an ongoing and open debate with usually more questions turning up with every new answer. And the very, very vast majority of all peer-reviewed answers indicate that human CO2 production influences and increases global warming.



This post is a very good example of how political correctness techniques are applied.

Note that there is no real analysis of the issue here, just a series of statements that in most part are incorrect.

Analysis of the scientific peer review process does show that the majority of scientists on the issue recognise AGW as a concept but do not necessarily agree that the human race is behind temperature increases. A tiny minority assert that AGW is simply not happening, a small minority say it is. In other words the vast majority of the profession has an open mind on the issue, as I have.

For the record I am aware of the scientific journals and concur with the overall view of average temperature increase of the order of 0.8 C - and not the 3.0 C increases proposed by some quarters.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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RF
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Re: Political correctness gone mad?

Postby RF » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:36 am

northcape wrote:
What kind of absolute nonsense are you talking?

.... but obviously you have and always had absolutey zero interest in science so you don't even know this very basic fact.


Insolence and ignorance all combined in one dose. No attempt to establish empathy but just a bog standard troll.

If I had no interest in science I would not be commenting on or have any views on AGW.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.


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