Some neat research findings

[George Elder]

Hi All:

Dave has been digging into the German technical literature of the pre-WWII and WWII era, and he has found a great deal of material. With his forgiveness, I hope, let me share the following bits of info:

Hi George,

I finally had chance to make it back to the old german journals. I was going to photocopy the STS analysis for you, as well as some RHA Youngs Modulas tables, but I never made it that far. I found so much more stuff that caught my eye, and before I knew it I was out of time.

What I found that sidetracked me, was a bunch stuff on welding ST52, panzer plate R&D data, and a big June 1938 article on engineering and design progress in the Kriegsmarine Marine titled: "Der Einfluss des Kriegsschiffbaues auf die Entwicklung der Technik" (Hans Burkhardt VDI) In a previous 1937 article some of the chief engineers involved in the Bismarck class design are identified. The weld engineer was Dr Ingeniere Alfred Junger VDI. The chief Artillery systems engineer was Dr Ingeniere Karl Becker VDI. These were not young inexperianced Nazi lackies, brought in after the Nazis take over, but had been there since the Riechs Marine and the Panzer Schiff designs. These people did seek outside advice from British and American experts too. There's a 1933 feasabilty study on using 100% electric welding for future battleship construction, were in The American Cox naval archetecture firm was consulted, and also John Brown Ship Builders in Scotland. A case study was made of a John Brown built ship, and also the Admiraltie's welding problems with the 1932 heavy cruiser building program was examined. It was at this point that they realized modular construction methods would need to be used, and they determined that Blohm & Voss had the most suitable yard fror such construction techniques. B&V had the best infrastructure, including the needed massive gantry cranes to transport prefabricated sections. B&V also already had automatic welding machines in place, and was already using automatic welding. B&V had already used welding extensively. A big concern was the snails pace of manual welding. Duetsch Werks Germania in Kiel, was determined to have the best staff of manual welders, and it was decided to start a ship welding school and a welding research center at Kiel, to tap into this pool.

The sections on St 52's orgins are interesting. The composition given, is essentially the same as the ST52 used in modern Japanese welded ship building, and ST52 was developed during 1933 and 1934 to replace the existing Schiffsbaustahl for welded construction. ST52 was designed specifically for welded construction. The min UTS was 52kg/mm2, but the max was 64. YTS was 36- 38 kg/mm2. Elongation was a min of 21%, compared to 16% of the older materials. I still havn't got deep into the exaustive 1942 "Stahl und Eissen" study on ST52 weld failures. Theres no need to speculate about this anymore. The Germans had already studied the problem extensively at that time, and the raw research data exists. It seems they certianly were not amatures when it came to welding. I'm very impressed by the caliber of their welding understanding and R&D efforts.

Burkhardts overview article covers several subjects, and since my scanner will not work, I'm was going to type out a section of it on Microsoft word in an attatchment for you, but it's too big of a task. It really is. Hopefully I'll get this thing running soon, and you you can see some of this stuff. I also really need to go DSL. The modem just makes sending scans impractical. It can take 45 minutes to send a J-peg. I thought you would find this particularly interesting though, so I'll try to get this sent in the next few weeks. This is about stablizing large ships for a more steady gun platform, while still having a numerically high GM....I think..??(its all in rather technical German). There's talk of roll damping( dampfungsienrichtung) using "Framschen Schlingertanks". Siemens was the contracter coming up with the technology, but they say that similar active stabilzation systems had previously been used succesfully on Derflinger and Von Der Tann, and on destroyers and torpedo boats. Derflinger's roll behaviour was damped 35% according to the article, if i'm reading it correctly. They had just finished an over view on the new twin turret design philosophy and some rationals, comparing it to the older Baden design, and extrapolating on WWI war experiance with Seydlitz and Ostfriesland battle damage . They do say the new twin turret design should be capable of a ROF of 3 shots per minute, per gun. Previous to this, was an overview on Man diesels, as used in Graf Spee, and they had started out with some of the metalurgy advances, being employed in the newest designs.

Dave

I hope Dave can get us Burkhardts overview because it seems very important and it should be translated ASAP. Dave has made some great finds in recent years, and he is leading us into the actual design rational -- which is where we should be headed.

George

[VeenenbergR]

I must always smile about the spelling of German words by British or US naval experts: Duetsch Werks Kiel and Riechs. Marine, Dampfungsienrichtung.
No need to say they mean: "Deutsche Werke Kiel" and "Reichsmarine", Dampfungseinrichtung.

I don't know why the German use of the "ie" or "ei" is so frequently misspelled by British and US authors. John Keegan's Atlas of WWII spells: "Deitl", "von Manstien", "Veitinghoff", "Fiege", "Rundestedt".
Lucky for me I always know which persons they mean, but it remains strange.

Also common using strange mixed Anglo-saxon/German combinations: "Third Reich".

And then city names: Berlin, Hamburg, frankfurt OK, but then also
Munich, Nuremberg, Cologne instead of München, Nürnberg and Köln.
The same is true for spelling corresponding ship names:

"Prince Eugene" !!! Everybody knows that this must be "Prinz Eugen"

[Ulrich Rudofsky]

"I must always smile about the spelling of German words by British or US naval experts." I guess you and I are are lucky. But then we have a nearly pathologic speech defect: we can't pronounce Th and W properly! However, gross errors in publications are just plain ignorance, sloppy editing or, I suspect, a subconcious disdain for the Germans.

[George Elder]

... for posting, or I'm out of luck. I can't spell correctly in any language.

George, the lame and slow

[E.Ludwig]

oh oh

[ingura]

Hi there,

I would like to add something here. From what I read the Frahm'sche Schlingertanks were not exactly a success. Expert might have noticed that DERFFLINGER was sporting them and did not have bilgekeels. The two sisterships LÜTZOW and HINDENBURG did have bilgekeels and not anti-rolling-device alike DERFFLINGER.

These Schlingertanks were exclusively used by Blohm & Voss and I'm not sure if other shipyards were licensed too. BUT - if these Anti-Rolling tanks would have been succesful I would expect that the RMA would have insisted on using them onboard other ships also.

It is know from the B-Boats - the early 1915 Destroyers built by B & V - were also outfitted with these tanks but shortly after commission they were used for something better.

My rough guess is:
- the anti-rolling device does have little effect onboard ships like Destroyers with a length to beam ratio of almost 10:1
- the tanks do work on ships which are more beamy BUT the handling was difficult
- the additional costs for this system were not worth it.

If someone has more info, I would welcome it.

Peter.

[Tiornu]

Good to see you, Peter. I've sent you a PM.
Didn't the anti-roll system on the F-class escorts prove a disaster? They started converting to tenders before the war.

[ingura]

Hi Tiornu,
regarding the F-Boats the "F" stood for "faulty".... A complete disaster indeed...

[Ulrich Rudofsky]

As far as I can tell the "Schlingertanks" worked well when done right. The high-speed "Bremen" liner did not have bilge keels; it had only fuel oil filled anti-roll damping tanks. Later on systems had hydraulic/pneumatic assists controlled with gyros. The principle and 1930-40 understanding of the "Schlingertank" is discussed by Heinrich Evers in "Kriegsschiffbau: Ein Lehr- und Hilfsbuch für die Kriegsmarine", 1943. page 430. Anyone wishing a copy of this chapter on stability should contact me.

[George Elder]

It is so very good to hear from you, Peter. I have been a bit out of the loopp myself with the pressures of my job and this illness. Currently, we are searching for information on the Bismarck class trial results, but nothing has surfaced. Dave Saxton found a bit of info on some general design theorey, but I'm not sure it can be deciphered by Ulrich because the copies did not come out well. So we're chugging along -- slowly but surely. I wish I could chug a bit faster, but that is not in the cards at present. In any event, it is good to have you back with us.

George