Japanese RDFC

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lwd
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Japanese RDFC

Post by lwd »

In particular I'll focus on battleships and surface RDFC. In the long range gunnery post I querried whether or not Japanese battleships had ever used it. Dave Saxton mentioned there were indications that Kongo had done so off Samar but no details. Over on the IJN board I on the thread listed below I found support for that and an indication that Haruna may have as well. In particular as follows:
http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?board=5.0
mucho writes:
it is noted that BB Kongo commanded BB Haruna in " Z-firing" (which means RC fire) at the Samar. BB Gongo also observes nr. 7 CruDiv commensing RC firings,too.
There's also an intriguing part just above that to the effect that:
Kongos S.S. describes the US fire control radar as much the same as IJN´s in directional accuracry, but their range accruracy as nice.
I thought angle accuracy was the problem but this implies the range accuracy of US sets was better. I'm also wondering just how Kongo's officers came by this intelligence.
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Re: Japanese RDFC

Post by Bgile »

I think by observing incoming salvoes ... they were almost always on in range, but they might be in the ship's wake at first.
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Integrated/non-integrated FC

Post by alecsandros »

Hello,

First of all, I think we should establish some definitions for the main concepts:
- radar directed fire control.
[In my opinion, there are 2 main types of RDFC:
- integrated fire control, with the radar data sent to the plotting room (at least)
- non-integrated FC, with the radar data used only to discover the enemy, and then use directors for plotting a solution]

The Japanese units, for all I know, had NO integrated FC throughout the war.
Their radars were used only to range the enemy. This is the case in Yamashiro/Fuso at Surigao and IIRC Kirishima at Guadalcanal (as appears in Tunny's and Skulki's books)

The range and accuracy of detection were far less than conteporary US systems.

The radars that were mounted on IJN battleships were not stabylised, and were victims of roll and pitch...

So, I don't think the Japanese system can be named "radar directed fire control". Radar assisted fire control would be much more appropriate, IMO.
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Dave Saxton
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Re: Japanese RDFC

Post by Dave Saxton »

Most Interesting
lwd wrote:I thought angle accuracy was the problem but this implies the range accuracy of US sets was better. I'm also wondering just how Kongo's officers came by this intelligence.
The general idea that radar has more problems with directional accuracy may be because of the grey area of accuracy and resolution. A radar in many cases can have excellent bearing accuracy but poor bearing resolution. Resolution is the ability to distinguish among one or more closely grouped targets.

The azimuthal resolution is a function of how wide the beam is, often described as 1/2 power beam width. This is in turn a function of wave length/ effective antenna size:

WL/Apeture(x corrective coefficient)

As can be seen, by using shorter wave lengths, or larger size antennas, improved bearing resolution can be attained.

In terms of bearing accuracy, accurate enough to be useful for firecontrol, requires lobe switching of some type so that the bearing accuracy is measured in small fractions of a degree. Without lobe switching the bearing accuracy can be at best ~1. The British 284 had a bearing accuracy of 0.75* using max signal, not accurate enough for firecontrol, for example. In 1935, Kriegsmarine Ordnance set the specifications for Seetakt for fire control usage to match that of their optics, such that the resolution for range to be no greater than 50 meters, and the bearing accuracy at least 0.2*, for example.

Looking at the USN Mk3/4 as an example, we find that its directional accuracy is within 0.2* when lobing, but the trade off is very poor bearing resolution. This is because lobe switching in this case causes the effective size of the antenna to be 1/2 of what it is when using max signal. The beam width and the bearing resolution becomes on the order of 12*-15*. This explains why it had problems distiguishing targets and for spotting the fall of shot for bearing.

The British 284M used a type of lobe switching that had small effect on the bearing resolution, so it's bearing resolution was 4.5*, as oppossed to 15* for the MK3, while lobing. However, the 284M's display setup made it very difficult to spot the fall of shot directionally as well. If the stabalised director, that the radar's antenna was mounted to, was aimed directly at the target; the 284M would cause the pip to hold steady on the A-scope. If the director was aimed slightly off to the left or the right, then the pip would flicker at different rates. The directional accuracy of 284M could be as good as 0.08* (better than Mk8) but the practical bearing accuracy was also limited by the precision of the director the antenna was mounted to. The accuracy of the lobe switching indication and antenna aim could be checked by occasionally rocking the director back and forth.

The USN Mk8 using a 10cm wave length could attain a beam width of 2* while using a relatively compact antenna array of 42 plastic cones. This is compared to 15* for the Mk3. By moving to 3cm wave length in Mk13 (Mk8Mod3 is a Mk8 converted to Mk13) the beam width could be further reduced and even better bearing resolution attained. However, practical problems could be caused by too small of a beam width. For example, the British 274 used 10cm wave length with a relatively large antenna. This produced a beam so focused that even at extreme ranges; the shot could fall mostly outside of the beam, and so it could not spot the fall of shot.

Range accuracy is a function of the how precise the elapsed time of the pulse to and from the target could be measured. The British Type 284M to use an example once again, attained a range accuracy of 120 yards read directly off the A-scope, but 240 yards normally. The USN radars provided range accuracies that were a % of the range. For example MK8 was 0.01% (10x more accurate than the USN's optics) the range +/- 15 yards. So the range accuracy at 30,00 yards was +/-45 yards.

Range resolution in most cases (but not all) is a function of the pulse duration. The British 284M used a pulse duration of 1us resulting in a range resolution of 150 meters ( Mk3 was 400 yards by way of comparision). For the Japanese radars with extra long pulse widths of up to 10 us, results in a range resolution of 1500 meters, unless they were using some more advanced method.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Japanese RDFC

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

According to Willmott the IJN did a pretty good shooting at Samar but with incredible bad luck, straddles but not hits. What Lee posts as an initiating this thread makes sense and in agreement with what Willmott states.
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Re: Japanese RDFC

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Karl Heidenreich wrote:According to Willmott the IJN did a pretty good shooting at Samar but with incredible bad luck, straddles but not hits. What Lee posts as an initiating this thread makes sense and in agreement with what Willmott states.
Yeah... having four battleships and a flock of cruisers/destroyers at your disposal and then getting spanked by a few DEs/DDs and Wildcats is pretty bad luck...
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Re: Japanese RDFC

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Yeah... having four battleships and a flock of cruisers/destroyers at your disposal and then getting spanked by a few DEs/DDs and Wildcats is pretty bad luck...
It is a sad comment, Jon, because no one gave space or origin for such an unnecesary outburst. Let's leave at this, we hope.
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Re: Japanese RDFC

Post by yellowtail3 »

No outburst, Karl; I'm agreeing with you. Very bad luck on the part of that Japanese fleet. I hate to think how much worse their luck might have been, had they run into a few battleships & cruisers!
Last edited by yellowtail3 on Sat Jul 10, 2010 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Japanese RDFC

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Kurita's indecision deprived History of an outcome in this one episode.
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Re: Japanese RDFC

Post by Bgile »

I recently read "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors". The IJN really took a beating in this battle. Three US destroyers (actually one DE) did a lot of damage, and a 5" gun on one of the CVE's crippled an IJN cruiser when it hit the Long Lance torpedo tubes.

In any case, this battle wasn't nearly as one sided as it looks on first appearance. The continuous air attacks hurt, and the IJN lost several cruisers. Kurita had gone several days without sleep and the continuous strafing probably effected his ability to concentrate and make aggressive decisions.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Japanese RDFC

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Steve,

Yes, you are correct. In Willmott's book the criticism centers on Kurita's but it also tries to analyse the events and circumstances that affected his decision making. As with Nagumo in Midway, the bridge issues were monstruous and those guys were not in a good position to take cool decisions. The USN destroyers did an incredible and heroic job holding the IJN at bay, producing, maybe, the correct effect in Kurita's mind that he was fighting, again, a superior force or such. Nobody can tell, with precision, what this guy thought.
But it is curious that Nagumo, Abe and Kurita all suffered of an aparent "losing their nerve" at combat situations. Very curious, because if any of the three should have taken more cold blood decisions many things should have change, specially in Nagumo's and Abe's case.
And here we are, off topic again...
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Re: Japanese RDFC

Post by lwd »

I know there's at least speculation that Kurita was suffering from Dengue (sp?) fever at the time or something similar. Spending time in the water couldn't have helped.
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Re: Japanese RDFC

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

I have heard the dengue story more than once. I think that Willmott refers to it but not sure. But even with just a stomache it would be a world of pain to try to take a decision.
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Re: Japanese RDFC

Post by Dave Saxton »

Okay, I found some fairly solid additional information on the Type2 model2 and its derivatives that may be helpful.

The range of the Type22 varied from 22km to plus 30km depending on the mounting height of the horns above the water. On a IJN battleship pagota it would have had a battleship to battleship range of more than 30,000 meters. It was also used for firecontrol purposes in lue of the dedicated firecontrol sets the IJN was waiting on. It could be used blind in conjunction with night optics and infared.

The original plan was to use the Type22 for surface search and to develop a dedicated firecontrol design based on the German Wuerzburg. By using a Wuerzburg based design it could be used for firecontrol against ships and aircraft both, and it would use conical scan. The Germans (Goering actually, the KM refused to release Seetakt for export)) finally agreed to supply a Wuerzburg to the IJN in 1942. However, the submarine that transported it and the plans was sunk near Singapore. Another delivery sub (Italian) also ran afoul. These sinkings were probably due to Ultra. Finally the IJN got a partial set. They did not stick to the original design but substituted a cavity magnetron for the German triode powered transmitter. It performed poorly with the magnetron transmitter, attaining a range to surface ships of only 13km.

Now 1943, the IJN regrouped and decided to develop fire control versions of the Type22 instead. There were actually three different versions of this. One version did not begin trials until March 1945, and never entered production. This has probably caused some confusion. However according to Raymond Wattson, the Type32 was operation in small numbers by Sept 1944 with several additional sets completed before the end of the war. It is plausible that important IJN warships had some long range RDFC capability, and possibly even dedicated firecontrol radars by autum 1944.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.
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Re: Japanese RDFC

Post by alecsandros »

Hi David,
From Tunny's book - "battle of Surigao Strait", it appears that both Fuso and Yamashiro only had Type 22 radars. They used visual corrections for artillery, so no kind of integrated fire control.
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