Teleportation: H Classe in place of Bismarck

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
ede144
Member
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:09 pm

Re: Teleportation: H Classe in place of Bismarck

Postby ede144 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:34 pm

Honestly, if H is ready to go for Rheinübung, than you have either BS or TP available too. So H and BS will go and the short legged Prinz will stay at home, or go to Norway.
Then we have a totally different can of worms :lol:

User avatar
Dave Saxton
Supporter
Posts: 2874
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains USA

Re: Teleportation: H Classe in place of Bismarck

Postby Dave Saxton » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:46 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Dave saxton wrote; "No, the belt just extended deeper down and was not tapered. The main armoured deck remained 1 meter above the water line."

Hi Dave,
thanks again for the info. Therefore, if I understand correctly, compared to Bismarck, the H class would have had a "longer" slope in order to go from the 1 meter deeper belt bottom (not tapered) to the main deck, 1 meter above water, thus giving to the scheme belt+slope the same effectiveness of the Bismarck one (except for the slightly thinner maximum belt thickness).

Does anybody have an armor scheme for H class that can be posted here ?

Bye, Alberto


The slope retains the same geometry. It does not need to meet the bottom of the belt. The distal end of the belt (the extension of the H class) does not meet the bottom of the slope in either case.

The H class scarp triangle provides significantly more ballistic protection despite the reduction of max belt thickness from 320mm to 300mm because the slope thickness is increased from 120mm to 150mm. The thickness of the slope is more important than the thickness of the belt.

At the lower edge of the belt the thickness of the H class belt is probably greater than Bismarck's because it is not tapered.

By extending the belt deeper down, even without the slope meeting the new position of the lower edge of the belt, it reduces the vulnerability to below the belt penetration by diving shell as per Alex's argument.

I remain skeptical that the historical hit would have been arrested by a deeper belt, however.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

User avatar
Dave Saxton
Supporter
Posts: 2874
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains USA

Re: Teleportation: H Classe in place of Bismarck

Postby Dave Saxton » Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:05 pm

@ Alex

The shell had to explode against the bulkhead at or near the bottom in order to yield the type of damage it did historically. If it exploded some distance away from the bulkhead it could not have caused the perforations it did nor rip up the double bottom structures, as the splinters would be arrested by the bulkhead after being slowed by the oil. How it got near the bottom is somewhat of an enigma. It is rather unlikely that it entered the hull just below the belt. I have lay'ed out the cross section drawings, and if it retained a 18-20* angle it just can't get to the bottom of the bulkhead if it entered the hull just below the belt. It would require it to enter hull much deeper down.

I strongly suspect that this was a case of the hull area being uncovered by a trough in the wave form along the hull at the high speed the Bismarck was making at the time.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 3990
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Contact:

Re: Teleportation: H Classe in place of Bismarck

Postby alecsandros » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:24 pm

@Dave
Could be , but that would manifest 1-2 meters to the starboard and port of the ship, or so... A ultra-long functioning fuze and/or a curious underwater trajectory are further required to explain a damage so low in the ship, if that was actualy that deep, and we are not having confused survivor memoirs [for instance, there were some fuel tanks higher in the ship, immediately behind the lower armored belt, no ?]...

Best,

User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7488
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: Teleportation: H Classe in place of Bismarck

Postby RF » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:29 pm

ede144 wrote:Honestly, if H is ready to go for Rheinübung, than you have either BS or TP available too. So H and BS will go and the short legged Prinz will stay at home, or go to Norway.
Then we have a totally different can of worms :lol:


Well, yes the thinking here is logical.

However my thoughts were what if Hitler had started the Z Plan earlier, at the time of the genesis of Bismarck, such that H Classe started then in place of Bismarck. That I think could have happened.

Prinz Eugen is relevant in that it had a torpedo armament not available to the big battleships. In a prolonged action with POW there is the option of the Prinz closing like a destroyer for torpedo attack, which makes it easier to sink POW, whereas gunfire alone makes that task far more difficult within the time available, particulary with Wake-Walker and six British destroyers in the background.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

Mostlyharmless
Member
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:45 pm

Re: Teleportation: H Classe in place of Bismarck

Postby Mostlyharmless » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:52 pm

On further reflection to explain the damage in the double bottom, could the shell from Prince of Wales have hit the bottom of Bismarck’s belt, possibly aided by a wave trough, and deflected downwards?

alecsandros
Senior Member
Posts: 3990
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Contact:

Re: Teleportation: H Classe in place of Bismarck

Postby alecsandros » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:13 pm

One other thought: do we know if Bismarck had a noticeable roll during her motion on the sea that day ?
Some roll at the wrong time could have helped the shell by exposing more un-protected hull (in conjunction with a delta wave...)
Best,

Maciej
Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Tue May 10, 2016 8:17 pm
Location: Poland

Re: Teleportation: H Classe in place of Bismarck

Postby Maciej » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:34 pm

British 14" shell falls at 18.2 degrees and 476m/s at 18km.

According to navweaps.com
But it is for 2400 fs muzzle velocity, so with considerably worn out guns.
PoW guns were new, and some of them had measured MV even higher than nominal new. On warships1 board Phill Golin put some time ago exact values of MV of PoW just before Denmark Strait battle.
So with ~2480 to 2490 fs striking angle was lower (trajectory flatter)
But sea was not "flat". There were waves ~2 or 3 meters high. At point of impact angle of hit could be considerably different compared to "flat sea" due to local "wawe shape".
And distance from waterline (real) and hull considerably different between highest and lowest point of wave, so as result distance need to travel before hit


Return to “Hypothetical Naval Scenarios”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest