Richelieu and Jean Bart

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
User avatar
Dave Saxton
Supporter
Posts: 2988
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains USA

Re: Richelieu and Jean Bart

Post by Dave Saxton » Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:57 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:48 am
Hi Dave,
in terms of thickness, I agree the 9 ER mm would not add much to the 36 OD mm.

I wonder whether they play a role in order to help de-capping the shell and/or enhancing the jawing movement before hitting the main armored deck, compensating (in some way) the presence of the 12 ER mm deck in between... :think:


Bye, Alberto
I don't know.
Entering a night sea battle is an awesome business.The enveloping darkness, hiding the enemy's.. seems a living thing, malignant and oppressive.Swishing water at the bow and stern mark an inexorable advance toward an unknown destiny.

User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 2812
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: Richelieu and Jean Bart

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:07 pm

Thanks Dave,

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 2812
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: Richelieu and Jean Bart

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:21 pm

Hello everybody,

I confirm, VV fired 7 salvos (19 shells) in 10 minutes at Teulada/Spartivento from her aft turret (Italians were retreating) against Manchester from 28,500 - 32,500 meters, starting her fire at 13:00 in almost perfect visibility conditions.
It's strange Manchester did not realize she was fired at by a battleship... but I cannot comment on VV fire precision as I don't have the original VV GAR of Teulada/Spartivento battle.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 2812
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: Richelieu and Jean Bart

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:49 am

Hello everybody,

I have tried to find something more about Teulada/Spartivento battle, but unfortunately I should go to Rome to find the original Adm.Campioni report and the (hopefully attached) VV GAR to have something more precise...

Anyway, Marc'Antonio Bragadin (former Supermarina officer) in his 1968 "Il dramma delle Marina Italiana" accounts for the battle (listing the Italian Admiralty files as source) saying that Manchester was straddled several times by the Italian heavy cruisers divisions (Adm.Iachino and Adm.Sansonetti) at 12:15 on November 27 1940, while Italians were retreating on course North-West (to Naples) and British cruisers were following them.

Then, at 13:00, Vittorio Veneto (also retreating to North-West), after having diminished her speed in order to support the cruisers, opened fire from extreme range (around 30 km) with good precision and straddled at the 4th salvo out of 7 3-guns salvos in total fired from the aft turret (N.3) only (unfortunately not specifying which British cruiser was straddled at that time...).

Realizing they were fired at by heavy guns, the British cruisers interrupted the chase of the Italians, turned away to South-Est making smoke and the battle was over.

As I see some smoke in the sky in the below photo posted by GiZi (while the visibility was reported as exceptional that day), it is probable that what we see are the British cruisers retreating and it is thus well possible, albeit not sure, that the photo is showing a 15" salvo falling close to Manchester (slightly short and not over, as well as the one against Perth or Orion at Gaudo, but with much much less dispersion than the latter).

VV to Manchester_Spartivento_28,5-32,5.jpg
VV to Manchester_Spartivento_28,5-32,5.jpg (24.02 KiB) Viewed 1380 times


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

Thorsten Wahl
Senior Member
Posts: 682
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:17 pm

Re: Richelieu and Jean Bart

Post by Thorsten Wahl » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:58 pm

Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!

Post Reply