Ideal Rheinubung
I do agree the AA on surface raiders sucked. That is why I proposed damage to the ships on my last post. It is hardly likely that the four ships were to go through the Channel unnoticed. By the way, how long would it take the Germans to get within radar or eye contact of Britain, through the Channel, and out of useful aircraft range, or air cover from Occupied France
The only other way into the Atlantic, not being actively patrolled, would have meant trying to traverse the pack ice and polar ice cap to reach the Kennedy channel leading into Baffin Bay to the West of Greenland. Impractical if not outright impossible.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood and Earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned these defended;
And saved the sum of things for pay.
If they are starting from Germany they can have air cover until they reach France.Ramius wrote:... By the way, how long would it take the Germans to get within radar or eye contact of Britain, through the Channel, and out of useful aircraft range, or air cover from Occupied France
Surface radar is only good for about 20nm in most cases. Ducting and radars on significant elevations can reach further. If however they have air cover this could be spotted at well over 100 nm depending on elevation.
One of the real problems with a reverse channel dash is that it gives the British a lot more time to prepare especially at the narrowest points. There's a good chance that British recon assests (subs and aircraft perhaps spys) would spott the ships soon after they left port. The British then have time to organize both air strikes and torpedo attacks by MTBs and DDs. Perhaps even lay some mines. The coastal artillery is also likely to be primed and waiting. The ports of France are within range of British bombers so the ships aren't save there.
Indeed. Bismark might be able to break ice but she couldn't do it quickly. Almost guaranteed that they'd have plenty of British ships waiting for them by the time they got through. Unless of course they got trapped in the ice until after the war.tommy303 wrote:The only other way into the Atlantic, not being actively patrolled, would have meant trying to traverse the pack ice and polar ice cap to reach the Kennedy channel leading into Baffin Bay to the West of Greenland. Impractical if not outright impossible.
Luetjens' orders from SKL, if I recall, gave him tactical control over U-boats for joint operations during this mission and he had a liason officer from BdU on board for that purpose. After Denmark Straits, a line of U-boats was ordered to be established to the south, should Bismarck not shake off her shadowers, with the plan for Bismarck to decoy Wake-Walker's cruisers and Prince of Wales into a trap. In the event, Bismarck was able to break contact head towards the Bay of Biscay before that became necessary.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood and Earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned these defended;
And saved the sum of things for pay.
Hmmm ... it isn't easy, but if the warship happens to pass within range ...lwd wrote:Modern warships traveling at speed are not very easy targets for torpedoes especially sub launched ones. Pulling all the U-boats off of their commercial targets for less productive work vs warships might have been a real boost to the British.
ask Shinano, Malaya, Wasp, Indianapolis etc, etc. US submarines in particular sank a lot of Japanese warships.
The trick of course is to get them to come close enough to the slow sub. If you can put the sub in the path of the ship, and do it before the ship gets there, you have a good chance.
Of course, then you have the situation where the Japanese set up a picket line of subs and a US DE found one and then went down the line sinking all of them.
Effecting a coordinated effort between surface forces and submarines seems remarkably difficult to achieve. Both sides tried it several times during WW1, without much success, and, similarly, in WW2. Even when contact was made fear of a misidentification seems to have stopped submarine commanders taking the chance. After Jutland at least one submarine commander missed the chance of torpedoing the retreating German ships. I guess it is hard to appreciate just how big the oceans are without experiencing it!!
regards
regards
A lot of the warships the US sank were already damaged. Sure sub can do it it's just not easy. Particularly if the ships are escorted and alert. Consider also Japanese ASW was not nearly as well developed as US and British. Another problem is what happens if the U-boats misidentify a US ship and attack it.Bgile wrote:...
ask Shinano, Malaya, Wasp, Indianapolis etc, etc. US submarines in particular sank a lot of Japanese warships.
....
Didn't a major British warship pass within easy torpedo range of a U-boat during the Bismarck chase and was saved by the fact that the U-boat had no torpedoes left?lwd wrote:A lot of the warships the US sank were already damaged. Sure sub can do it it's just not easy. Particularly if the ships are escorted and alert. Consider also Japanese ASW was not nearly as well developed as US and British. Another problem is what happens if the U-boats misidentify a US ship and attack it.Bgile wrote:...
ask Shinano, Malaya, Wasp, Indianapolis etc, etc. US submarines in particular sank a lot of Japanese warships.
....
Which ones were damaged prior to the submarine attack? As far as I know, most of them were sunk entirely by the submarine. Certainly all 4 of the ones I listed were, but there were a number of others.
Actually, most ships sunk by other means were by definition "already damaged" by other ships or aircraft. Submarines tend to be lone wolves. I guess what you are saying is some warships trying to limp home were sunk by submarines.
I don't mean to imply that it was easy ... there was a lot of luck involved because of the huge speed differential. US submarines were sent after Japanese merchant ships and they happened to be in the right place to sink some warships as well. They were often located in geographic bottlenecks that were hard to avoid.
I also agree that it's very hard to coordinate them with surface ships. By the time you figure out where the surface ship is going to be and send orders to the slow sub, the surface ship is often already there. You also usually don't know exactly where your own subs are on a given day.
Incidentally, escorts going at high speed can't use their sonar effectively. They have to rely on spotting periscope or torpedo tracks.
