RFC equipped Yamato vs. Iowa

[lwd]

Even if the axis hardware was comparable (which I've seen no real evidence of todate) they lacked the operational experience of the allies in using it. The axis powers tended to minimize their use of what radar they did field and when combined with how little sea time they got this would have been a serious problem. The US and UK on the other hand made extensive use of it and shared info and as a consequence were much better versed in what radar could do and what problems might crop up. For instance just looking at the Iowa's firing at Nowaki they learned quite a bit going from trying to use both aerial and radar spotting to relying entirely on radar spotting. Also radar meshed extremely well with other components of at least the US fire control systems and the effects tended to be multiplicative.

[Dave Saxton]

That's probably true of the IJN situation, and certainly the RM situation that ended in 1943, but not necessarily the KM. The information and data are not readily obtainable (yet), certainly not on the internet, and so the popular narative does not address these facts.

[Karl Heidenreich]

lwd:

For instance just looking at the Iowa's firing at Nowaki

Did the Iowa ever fired it´s guns against something else aside Nowaki? It´s like somekind of Nowaki Gospel...

[Bgile]

lwd:

For instance just looking at the Iowa's firing at Nowaki

Did the Iowa ever fired it´s guns against something else aside Nowaki? It´s like somekind of Nowaki Gospel...

Kind of like the Hood Gospel?

[Karl Heidenreich]

Bgile:

Kind of like the Hood Gospel?

Nope. Nowaki was a little vessel, hardly a threat for a ship of Iowa´s size. But Hood was a capital ship, pride of her navy, in company of a battleship in what looked to be a superior squadron to that of the Germans that consisted in "only" one capital ships plus a cruiser. On the other hand Bismarck lacked of the RDFC which is kinda magical instrument to straddle early in a combat (that Bismarck did anyway without it). So, it´s not comparable. Bismarck was at real risk, was fighting it´s peers, and was (at least nominally) in disadvantage. Hardly Iowa practicing against what could be regarded as a defenseless vessel.

No Hood Gospel, still, just Nowaki...

[Bgile]

Bgile:

Kind of like the Hood Gospel?

Nope. Nowaki was a little vessel, hardly a threat for a ship of Iowa´s size. But Hood was a capital ship, pride of her navy, in company of a battleship in what looked to be a superior squadron to that of the Germans that consisted in "only" one capital ships plus a cruiser. On the other hand Bismarck lacked of the RDFC which is kinda magical instrument to straddle early in a combat (that Bismarck did anyway without it). So, it´s not comparable. Bismarck was at real risk, was fighting it´s peers, and was (at least nominally) in disadvantage. Hardly Iowa practicing against what could be regarded as a defenseless vessel.

No Hood Gospel, still, just Nowaki...

And what does Hood's power have to do with who can shoot straight? You think somehow you would get scared at shooting at Hood and so you miss? This isn't pistols at 20 paces.

[Karl Heidenreich]

It´s real combat, not practice firing.

[dunmunro]

Bismarck had radar at DS, on her after FC station, so she had radar ranging assistance, unlike PoW which scored her 3 hits with optical FC only. During the 2nd engagement PoW straddled Bismarck at over 30000yds, using only optical FC, yet Bismarck's own optical directed FC was so poor that PoW didn't even realize that Bismarck was trying to engage PoW in return.

[Bgile]

It´s real combat, not practice firing.

Why does that make any difference at all? We have an expression in the military: "You fight the way you train."

What you seem to be saying is "training" (fighting an inferior opponent) doesn't count at all.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Bismarck radar at DS was not working properly, remember, that´s why Prinz Eugen was leading the formation. Baron Mullenheim von Rechberg does not say anything about Schneider targeting by radar, just using the opticals.

But... if he did... then (I´m not saying he did) that is evidence that RDFC in axis hands was as good that of the USN, because it was used, succesfully, in combat against enemy capital ships, destroying one of them and damaging the other one. And that two years before North Cape or Iowa´s dangerous critical combat against Nowaki.

Best regards.

[lwd]

That's probably true of the IJN situation, and certainly the RM situation that ended in 1943, but not necessarily the KM. The information and data are not readily obtainable (yet), certainly not on the internet, and so the popular narative does not address these facts.

How many ship hours at sea did the KM have? Now compare it to the RN and the USN. Then look at how many radar ship hours they had (ie how many of those sea hours were they using their radars). The RN and USN almost assuredly have orders of magnitude more. How many actions did the KM have where they used RDFC? Compare that to RN and USN again you will find a tremendous difference.

[lwd]

... Nowaki was a little vessel, hardly a threat for a ship of Iowa´s size.

and Iowa got multiple straddles at incredible ranges and may even have damaged her.
Whether she was a threat or not was irrelevant to the performance of Iowa's (and New Jersey's) fire control. Indeed it is the clarity of this engagment that makes it so useful.

But Hood was a capital ship, pride of her navy, in company of a battleship in what looked to be a superior squadron to that of the Germans that consisted in "only" one capital ships plus a cruiser.

And this is relevant to the performance of her fire control how?

On the other hand Bismarck lacked of the RDFC which is kinda magical instrument to straddle early in a combat (that Bismarck did anyway without it). So, it´s not comparable. Bismarck was at real risk, was fighting it´s peers, and was (at least nominally) in disadvantage.

Bismark was at a range where an optical FCS could be expected to work well. The twins and even Graf Spee might be better examples if you are saying that you don't need a RDFCS.

Hardly Iowa practicing against what could be regarded as a defenseless vessel....

Again irrelevant. RDFC allowed straddles and hits at ranges and in conditions when it was impossible or unlikely for OFC.

[dunmunro]

Bismarck radar at DS was not working properly, remember, that´s why Prinz Eugen was leading the formation. Baron Mullenheim von Rechberg does not say anything about Schneider targeting by radar, just using the opticals.



Best regards.

Bismarck's forward radar was out of service, but her after unit was, apparently, working fine. This same after unit could not be used in the 2nd action because it was outranged. I would guess that the radar ranges would be transmitted directly to the central FC station and the Baron would not be in the loop, so to speak.

[tommy303]

It would seem that the foretop radar was also working. As it was the highest in the ship, it had greater range than the after set, and Wake-Walker's cruisers were just at or beyond the maximum range of the after set. Prinz Eugen took the lead so her foretop radar could scan ahead as Bismarck's foretop set was otherwise occupied.

[Dave Saxton]

Regardless of the functionality of Bismarck's radars, Schneider used the established optical range finding procedures. He ordered a 400 meter bracket procedure after the first salvo fell just short according the Baron. The procedure was to fire short and long salvoes over a 400 meters spread, with the base salvo straddling, and this is exactly what the Bismarck did.

The Prinz Eugen on the other hand did not follow the old school procedure. The Prinz Eugen averaged the range data from the radar and from the optical instruments and attained a first salvo straddle.