An alternative Battle of the River Plate

[RF]

Quite a few threads on this site have discussed the precise purpose (or rather lack of purpose) of the Scharnhorst classe as a criticism of the ships design concept.

Given the 1939 battle that actually happened, may I propose an alternative scenario, which I think could also have happened.

Let us suppose Langsdorf was made captain of Scharnhorst instead of Ciliax in March 1939, and Raeder sent Scharnhorst into the Atlantic in place of Graf Spee. Due to identification errors the British and French believe the raider is a panzerschiffe.

On December 13 Langsdorf sights Harwoods ships, who has full strength with HMS Cumberland in company. Will Scharnhorst manage to sink all four of Harwood's squadron?

[Terje Langoy]

This scenario could actually have been a true possibility, although I'd swap the Scharnhorst for the Gneisenau. As known, the Gneisenau was in the Atlantic in June-July 1939, just prior to Westerplatte but she didn't carry live ammo. Let me quote Admiral Raeder:

"In any but the most peaceful times, no warship ever leaves home waters without full war-readiness magazines, and had I had any apprehensions of war I would never permitted her to sail unprepared"

Let's say the Gneisenau did carry live shells instead of blue ones, let's say she was moored at Las Palmas or Funchal as the Polish fortress was bombarded. River Platte occurs to Kpt.s.Z Förste instead of Langsdorf. Förste may be a different commander than Langsdorf but it should not matter that much if Harwood intercept with four cruisers. His adversaries are just as fast thus he have little choice but to fight them off. However, Harwood is truly a variable. Yes, he could be a Nelson-type but to begin with his effective assets are nonetheless HMS Exeter and Cumberland, as I see it. If the Gneisenau can disable and shift target quickly, then the group could soon be in trouble. The ability of the CA's are imperative. I'm tempted to say the encounter would have been inconclusive this time too. One or both of the CA's could be severely damaged but on the other hand, how damaged would the Gneisenau be? Would Montevideo present itself again? If so, what of British reinforcements? Who gets to be Cumberland this time? HMS Renown? And what kind of commander is Förste? Do he scuttle or charge? I keep thinking about HMS Exeter and Cumberland. What can they achieve here? And what of the light cruisers? Would they do a last-effort "Glowworm" or "Acasta" on the Gneisenau?

I have my own theory on the whole identification issue. Apparently the Gneisenau was often mistaken for a cruiser, according to the records. Scharnhorst was mistaken for the Deutschland by Cpt Kennedy in November 1939 but I believe this was more based on known intelligence than pure observations. He saw what he expected to see. In Trondheim in June 1940, Gneisenau was apparently mistaken for a Hipper-class by the British pilots. Well, in silhouette the Scharnhorst looks far more like a Hipper than the Gneisenau due to the mast position. So, did they mistake the Gneisenau for the Scharnhorst (after all, she looked like the Scharnhorst did throughout the spring of 1939) and the Scharnhorst for a Hipper-class? The different mast positions of the Twins could have been deliberate. Scharnhorst could be mistaken for a Hipper, Gneisenau could perhaps look like a Deutschland. In any case, I assume the British would be aware that the Gneisenau was in the Atlantic already during peacetime. If not, they would be in for a surprise when they discover the Graf Spee is a bit bigger than usual.

[Karl Heidenreich]

RF:

Graf Spee almost handled the original British Squadron at RP. So a much sophisticated warship as one of the Twins could have done it and walk out of it without living the fate of Lanfgsdorf...

My bet on Schanhorst.

Kind regards

[Bgile]

Well, you substituted a 35,000 ton battlecruiser for a 10,000 ton cruiser, so duh.

The British will shadow her. She doesn't have anything like the endurance of Graff Spee. Where is she going to refuel?

[dunmunro]

The fuel factor, which is pretty much insurmountable, and the unreliability of the KM's HP steam plants would combine to prevent Scharnhorst from being used in such an operation.

S&G, together, did face two RN DDs, and the net result was that both DDs were sunk, but Scharnhorst got torpedoed in return.

[RF]

But note that on Operation Berlin Lutjens took both ships as far south as Cape Verde.

Altmark presumably would have kept one of them fully supplied for one or two months, together with Westerwald, if diverted from the north Atlantic.

[RF]

Well, you substituted a 35,000 ton battlecruiser for a 10,000 ton cruiser, so duh.

The British will shadow her. She doesn't have anything like the endurance of Graff Spee. Where is she going to refuel?

Yes I have indeed substituted a 32,000 ton battlecruiser for a 14,000 ton pocket battleship, giving three extra 11 inch guns, versus a force that includes an extra county class cruiser, so I don't think this is an unrealistic proposition.
The idea behind my post is that Langsdorf attacks, so the British shadowing is not an immediate issue. Further still Scharnhorst has a speed advantage over Graf Spee so would, all other things being equal, be more difficult to shadow - as Lutjens was to later demonstrate to HMS Naiard at the commencement to Operation Berlin.

[Karl Heidenreich]

I believe that´s a credible scenario RF. And a credible KM victory also.

[lwd]

As stated it's a credible scenario. However I doubt it would be a "credible" German victory. In all likelyhood as suggested by others the British would not engage but would shadow until a British heavy unit arrived on scene or British carrier planes damaged the German BB enough that torpedo attacks were considered to be worth while. At the very least she wouldn't be catching many more merchants.

[Bgile]

Well, you substituted a 35,000 ton battlecruiser for a 10,000 ton cruiser, so duh.

The British will shadow her. She doesn't have anything like the endurance of Graff Spee. Where is she going to refuel?

Yes I have indeed substituted a 32,000 ton battlecruiser for a 14,000 ton pocket battleship, giving three extra 11 inch guns, versus a force that includes an extra county class cruiser, so I don't think this is an unrealistic proposition.
The idea behind my post is that Langsdorf attacks, so the British shadowing is not an immediate issue. Further still Scharnhorst has a speed advantage over Graf Spee so would, all other things being equal, be more difficult to shadow - as Lutjens was to later demonstrate to HMS Naiard at the commencement to Operation Berlin.

You have not only added 3 11" guns, but more powerful 11" guns, plus citadel armor impervious to 8" shell fire and no fuel processing weak links. You think the addition of a british CA makes much difference? The contest isn't even close. It's nothing at all like the one involving Graf Spee. You might as well have used Bismarck instead of Scharnhorst, except Scharnhorst carries more ammunition per gun so arguably would be better than Bismarck against cruisers.

The British will refuse combat and shadow her, destroying her supply ships when they are found, which will be soon since Scharnhorst can't operate very long without refueling.

[tommy303]

Hi Bgile,

Interesting thought concerning fuel. If Sch had refueled recently like GS, then she might well have had fuel enough for some 8000 miles or more. Any idea how much the cruisers had at the start of the actual battle? I should think lacking any kind of radar would have made life difficult for shadowers, would it not, particularly if the Sh doubled back on them in the night?

[RF]

Bgile,

This was intended as a 1939 scenario, prior to the blitzkriegs of the 1940's and the KM surface ship campaigns that followed.

The idea I proposed was that Harwood, with all four ships in company, would execute his pre-arranged plan to attack the supposed pocket battleship (he didn't know for sure what ship the raider actually was), while Langsdorf would implement his plan to rush and engage the British. The result would be that Scharnhorst (or Gneisenau if you prefer) would come under attack from 3 sides, as Harwood I don't think would be put off by the enemy being bigger than expected (remember his stated policy: ''attack at once, day or night'' no nonsense about shadowing until heavier units came up).

Exactly how Scharnhorst would deal with a three angled attack has never been tested. And I am a little puzzled at how a ship that some people have derided as strategically of little use has now become elevated to the role of a supership, just too big for four co-ordinated cruisers to handle.... Norfolk and Belfast certainly made their impact before DoY came along to finish the job. On paper Scharnhorst should win.

But wars aren't necessarily decided on paper and as observed eleswhere not even Bismarck was completely immune to 8 inch shellfire.

[Bgile]

Hi Bgile,

Interesting thought concerning fuel. If Sch had refueled recently like GS, then she might well have had fuel enough for some 8000 miles or more. Any idea how much the cruisers had at the start of the actual battle? I should think lacking any kind of radar would have made life difficult for shadowers, would it not, particularly if the Sh doubled back on them in the night?

I don't know the cruiser's fuel state before the battle. My opinion is more based on the historical situation where the German command didn't consider those ships suitable for very long range independent operation. In addition to the fuel problem you have the unreliable power plant. If Scharnhorst had been at sea as long as AGS, do you really think she'd have had her whole powerplant in operation?

Also, would you really want to double back on 4 cruisers in the middle of the night knowing some at least had torpedoes? One hit and your ship is probably done for.

[Bgile]

Bgile,

This was intended as a 1939 scenario, prior to the blitzkriegs of the 1940's and the KM surface ship campaigns that followed.

The idea I proposed was that Harwood, with all four ships in company, would execute his pre-arranged plan to attack the supposed pocket battleship (he didn't know for sure what ship the raider actually was), while Langsdorf would implement his plan to rush and engage the British. The result would be that Scharnhorst (or Gneisenau if you prefer) would come under attack from 3 sides, as Harwood I don't think would be put off by the enemy being bigger than expected (remember his stated policy: ''attack at once, day or night'' no nonsense about shadowing until heavier units came up).

Exactly how Scharnhorst would deal with a three angled attack has never been tested. And I am a little puzzled at how a ship that some people have derided as strategically of little use has now become elevated to the role of a supership, just too big for four co-ordinated cruisers to handle.... Norfolk and Belfast certainly made their impact before DoY came along to finish the job. On paper Scharnhorst should win.

But wars aren't necessarily decided on paper and as observed eleswhere not even Bismarck was completely immune to 8 inch shellfire.

I agree that wars aren't decided on paper. This whole discussion is based on "paper". How else can we have a discussion about the merits of the hypothetical confrontation you have advanced?

You are suggesting that somehow Harwood can arrange an exact meeting so each of his cruisers is on one side Scharnhorst? How do you do that? If you do somehow arrange this, what keeps the German ship from simply turning toward one of them and destroying it while the others attempt to close the range?

I was under the impression Langsdorf only approached the British because he thought there was one cruiser and two destroyers. Is that not correct?

Did I use the word "supership"? Why is considering a ship superior to 4 cruisers making it a supership? What you have done is added a British CA to the mix and promoted AGS to Scharnhorst. AGS fought the British to a standstill. I just don't see how you think this change evens things out. Sure, anything is possible. A destroyer left Scharnhorst dead in the water. Does that mean 4 destroyers would be impossible for her to stop? One can come up with all kinds of unlikely things that really did happen, but I don't see how we can talk about a situation on the merits of it if we assume one side is very lucky. It's kind of like assuming every time S. Dakota is in a battle she has an electrical problem that puts her FC system out of action for the first 5 minutes. All I'm trying to do is compare the relative merits of the two sides and look at what I think would happen.

Of course none of these ships is immune to 8" or 6" or 5" shellfire, because a hit from any one of those could destroy FC equipment. However, AGS can be destroyed by 8" shellfire. I think Scharhorst is much more capable of withstanding it. You are entitled to disagree, because that's what this forum is all about.

[lwd]

I'm no expert but if it comes to a confrontation I don't see that either of the twins would be likely to take damage from 6" or 8" shell fire that would prevent her from making it home. On the otherhand 11" rounds can prove very leathal to the cruisers. If the British have to fight night is best for them. At night they have a chance of tropedo hits without becoming decisivly engaged. Futhermore with all the guns they have firing they do have a good chance of at least damaging the German BB and breaking off if they (when) they take serious damage. Does anyone know what a good figure for ammo capacity was? The Navweapons site list (these are per gun):
Panzershiffe "105 to 120 rounds" with 120 the design number.
Scharnhorst with "105 to 150 rounds" with 150 the design number.
Given that Graff Spee was somewhat depeleted in ammo after the River Platte battle Scharnhorst could have similar problems of not after a battle with 4 cruisers. If she's carring 150 rounds per gun she probably has an ample reserve if it's 105 then she may be in trouble if she has to fight again. If the British cruisers engage they have to be hopeing for at least one torpedo hit. Next best case is just making it easier for the next ship that encounters her.