USS Ticonderoga vs. USSR Kirov

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Re: USS Ticonderoga vs. USSR Kirov

Postby Bgile » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:43 am

This is like comparing a battleship to a cruiser.

One thing not discussed of course, is that if Kirov is typical of other Soviet/Russian ships, many of their systems will not be in operational condition on any given day.

Neither ship is very good at asw, mainly because they won't get contact on a modern SSN.

A Tico is an AAW specialist ship. Kirov can do surface combat in ways far superior to Tico, assuming Kirov's systems work.

The USN simply has no ship comparable to Kirov and has no plans to build one.

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Re: USS Ticonderoga vs. USSR Kirov

Postby lwd » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:10 pm

andraxxus wrote:...Anti-shipping capabilities of Ticonderoga:
2x4 RGM-84D Harpoon (628 kg weight, 138 km range, 221 kg warhead, 850 km/h speed)
RIM-66 + RAMs can be used at visual range with secondary IR guidance. (62 kg warhead, mach 3.5 speed)
...

At one point Tico was suppose to carry Tomahawks. It should also be pointed out that if surface warfare was anticipated the SM-2s can be swapped out for Harpoons.

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Re: USS Ticonderoga vs. USSR Kirov

Postby Legend » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:41 am

I recall they do carry both...
AND THE SEA SHALL GRANT EACH MAN NEW HOPE, AS SLEEP BRINGS DREAMS.

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Re: USS Ticonderoga vs. USSR Kirov

Postby dundonrl » Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:59 pm

Legend wrote:I recall they do carry both...


the first 5 ships of the Ticonderogas have the Mk-26 twin armed launcher and didn't carry the Tomahawk cruise missile.. it wasn't till the USS Bunker Hill, with it's VLS launchers did they start carrying the Tomahawk..

if I was on the Ticonderoga, I'd wait till the Kirov had launched all her ASCM's, shoot them down, then close within range of the SM2's and launch those and the 8 Harpoons and hope to overwhelm the Kirov's missile defenses..

I'd really wish to be onboard a Iowa, let my escorts take out the incoming ASCM's then get within 16" gun range and blow the Kirov and her escorts out of the water..

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Legend
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Re: USS Ticonderoga vs. USSR Kirov

Postby Legend » Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:51 am

While SACRIFICING the thousands of men and billions of dollars of escort tonnage? I wouldn't mind being in an Iowa at all. Besides being in a 688, Seawolf, or a Virginia, an Iowa would be the best ship I could think of being in... with the armor... Phalanx... and SIXTEEN INCH GUNS!!!!!!!! :dance: :dance: :dance:

But that wasn't the parameters of the topic. Sorry. As for her surviving the first five minutes... that depends on how accurate the CIWIS are... and how much ammo they waste on each vampire. One idea I have depends on one fact I am uncertain about... Was Tico equipped with Asroc with her Mk26's? I don't have much experience with the launch system. If she was would it also be possible to program the thing to get in close to Kirov, dive before they could deploy their own CIWS, and home in and sink the bugger?


PS: Sure hope she ain't in this shape when she goes against the Kirov...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... y_Yard.JPG
AND THE SEA SHALL GRANT EACH MAN NEW HOPE, AS SLEEP BRINGS DREAMS.

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Re: USS Ticonderoga vs. USSR Kirov

Postby lwd » Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:07 pm

dundonrl wrote:
Legend wrote:I recall they do carry both...


the first 5 ships of the Ticonderogas have the Mk-26 twin armed launcher and didn't carry the Tomahawk cruise missile.. it wasn't till the USS Bunker Hill, with it's VLS launchers did they start carrying the Tomahawk..

if I was on the Ticonderoga, I'd wait till the Kirov had launched all her ASCM's, shoot them down, then close within range of the SM2's and launch those and the 8 Harpoons and hope to overwhelm the Kirov's missile defenses..

I'd really wish to be onboard a Iowa, let my escorts take out the incoming ASCM's then get within 16" gun range and blow the Kirov and her escorts out of the water..


Provision was made for the Tico's to carry Tomahawks in box launcher from what I recall. Due to a shortage I think they either didn't all get them or get as many as planned at launch. I'm not sure when/if they got a full load out but I'm pretty sure they all got some a some point.

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Re: USS Ticonderoga vs. USSR Kirov

Postby Bgile » Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:14 pm

Some of the Spruance class got box launchers on the sides behind the forward 5" gun, but I don't think any of the Ticos got them.

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Re: USS Ticonderoga vs. USSR Kirov

Postby Karl Heidenreich » Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:48 pm

Last year I made the USS Arleigh Burke and just bought me the Trumpeter 1:350 Kirov. If size means something then, by that measure, the Arleigh Burke doesn't stands a chance against that WWII sized full capital ship.
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Re: USS Ticonderoga vs. USSR Kirov

Postby Karl Heidenreich » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:28 am

One advantage of making scale models (specially if all of them are at the same scale, in my case 1:350) is that you can compare them, one against the other and try to use the information you got from books and this site to see the differences, the advantages or disadvantages of the ships. Having, let's say Bismarck, Hood, Prince of Wales and Repulse in the same table at the same moment helps a lot.

About a year ago I bought and built USS Arleigh Burke and usually put it with the USS Enterprise CVN 65. Of course Enterprise looks huge, but if you compare the USN contemporary destroyer against the WWI SMS Koenig then you got an idea of how ships have changed.

About a month ago I got Admiral Ushakov, a Kirov Class russian battlecruiser. I have not built it yet, lack of time. But at least I took the hull of it with the decks over it and put alongsde the Burke. Good God! The difference is substancial, the difference and the size. Alongside the Kirov the Burke looks small, too small and weak. The weapons arrays of the Kirov minimizes the Burke too much. Of course we know that a bigger ship, in theory, can absorb more damage than a smaller one, but also it seems the power projection of the russian ship. It makes obvious that the USN re commisioned the Iowas when inteligence of this ships was made known. Checking in the Proceedings magazine of 1985 and the Soviet Military Power of that same year makes clear that NATO considered this ship, and the Kutznesov CV, as serious threats.

Frankly, in a refit scenario which is taking place I don't see a Burke standing against such a Kirov vessel, no way.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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Re: USS Ticonderoga vs. USSR Kirov

Postby Bgile » Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:13 am

Karl,

The Burke is a destroyer.

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Re: USS Ticonderoga vs. USSR Kirov

Postby Karl Heidenreich » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:56 am

Steve:

It is a destroyer but that clasification is not entirely clarifying. When we say "destroyer" we think in a Fletcher destroyer of 2,100 tons, whilst a Burke is almost the size of WWI battleship with 9,200 tons and 293 men on board. The displacement is almost that of Graf Spee! So, a Burke is closer to a cruiser than a destroyer; now, the clasification is that of destroyer so it stays there. However the Burke is the "surface unit" of the USN with which the Kirov would have, eventually, to fight which is why I made the comparison.

Regards.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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Re: USS Ticonderoga vs. USSR Kirov

Postby Bgile » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:20 pm

Karl Heidenreich wrote:Steve:

It is a destroyer but that clasification is not entirely clarifying. When we say "destroyer" we think in a Fletcher destroyer of 2,100 tons, whilst a Burke is almost the size of WWI battleship with 9,200 tons and 293 men on board. The displacement is almost that of Graf Spee! So, a Burke is closer to a cruiser than a destroyer; now, the clasification is that of destroyer so it stays there. However the Burke is the "surface unit" of the USN with which the Kirov would have, eventually, to fight which is why I made the comparison.

Regards.


Graf Spee was 16,200 tons full load; just a bit larger than many WWII CAs. If you want to use full load displacement you are comparing a 9,200 ton ship with a ship three times it's displacement (Kirov at 28,000 tons). Hardly a fair comparison.

A Burke class escort would not be expected to fight Kirov. Most of the USN anti surface capability is in it's aircraft and submarines.

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Re: USS Ticonderoga vs. USSR Kirov

Postby Karl Heidenreich » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:57 pm

Steve:

A Burke class escort would not be expected to fight Kirov.


Correct. I rest my case.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
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