USS Ticonderoga vs. USSR Kirov

[Karl Heidenreich]

Well, we are back to the Cold War and things are messy.

The US main surface unit, the USS Ticonderoga, a 9,600 ton cruiser with all the high tech Uncle Sam could buy finds itself in a collision course against the Kirov, a Soviet Battlecruiser, a mean one as a matter of fact, having a displacement of 28,000 tons.

Ticonderoga features:

2 x Mk26 missiles
88 x RIM 66 SM2
8 x RGM-84 Harpoons!!!!
2 Phalanx mountings (quite cool stuff)
2 Mk 32 triple torpedoe tubes

A lot of electronics and a limited Kevlar armour (I believe it adds to nothing this last feature).

Kirov:

20 P-700 shipwreck missiles
14 SS-N-14 ASW cruise missiles!!!!
12 x 8 S-300 PMW
96 S-400 SAM!!!!
192 9K311 SAM!!!

I doubt that displacement wins here... I believe that here the gadgets made the difference...

Best regards...

[lwd]

This could easily end up with two new mostly metalic reefs.

It's somewhat dependent on what mission the Tico was on because her missile load out could vary with mission. Harpoons will probably not sink the Kirov but could leaver her a floating wreck. A nuclear tipped SM2 on the other hand ....

On the other hand Tico certainly doesn't want to even suffer a near miss from one of the big Soviet ship killers.

EW and a host of other things are likely to play a role in this one. Could go just about any way.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Isn´t there an edge in favour of USN because of highly sophisticated phase arrays and the such?

[Bgile]

One hit from a Kirov missile and Tico is gone.

The actual result would depend on whose gadgets are working best. Soviet ships were know to have very poor maintenance, and it's true that the US was always ahead in electronics, but one never knows ...

[Bgile]

I would consider a Burke to be superior to a Tico at surface action because of the Burke's stealth features which would make it's ecm more effective.

[lwd]

The Soviets practice a lot of EW stuff as well. Aegis helps a lot when you are looking at air born threat. I suspect the Tico would have a decent chance of defending herself against the Kirov esspecially if the latter doesn't launch all her StoS missiles in one volley. On the otherhand the Kirov has a fairly decent AA capabilty of her own. If the Tico is raidating then the Kirov will have a good idea where and what she is. EW is a crap shoot. Guess right and you can walk home with all the marbles guess wrong and ...

A lot also depends on the rules of engagement. I remember gameing a large scenario from this time period. The Soviets had a huge wave of incoming missiles and weren't going to be able to knock enough down conventionally to matter. So they targeted one of thier own aircraft with a nuclear AA missile. The EMP took care of most or all of the incoming missiles. Are you going to allow things like that?

By the way Harpoon does a pretty good job of modeling conflicts from this period.

[lwd]

I think I would give the US an edge in this one but it would come down as much to crew and captain as electronics. The US navy was at sea and practicing a lot more than the Soviet one. Also consider that almost none of the Soviet crew would have had more than a couple years experiance. Soviet sailor were 3 year conscripts as I recall.

[Legend]

In an over the horizon duel I believe the winner would be the one who is able to get missiles into the enemy ship faster, and who can defend better... The Tico has Phalanx which could knock out most of the missiles, but does the Kirov have any CIWS's? If it does, then it has just as much a chance as surviving than the AEGIS cruiser does. The displacement of the ship has absolutely nothing to do with it, unless the Kirov has battleship class armor that I don't know about... A harpoon is going to puncture that hull and blow the missile batteries to kingdom come, kind of like throwing darts through paper. And I think if that Kirov takes a hit to the bow, it isn't going to be a floating wreck. Those missiles up front have enough propellant and warhead explosives to vaporize that ship twice over, and then some. On the flip side if little Tico takes one to any of her batteries, BOOM. Although I wouldn't be surprised if she had the better chance due to the fact of the two Phalanx's and the fact that her superstructure size to hull size compared to the Kirov is allot bigger. If Tico takes a hit to the superstructure I think she will be fine in the long run, able to keep fighting. Yeah she will take a ton of casualties with a hit like that to the superstructure, but her fangs will be fine... those wonderful 5in's and Harpoons.

[als_pug]

i used to play an interesting game called HARPOON . i actually made a mission exactly like this to see the result. The winner every time was the first one to see the other . usually i would launch a helo with no radar operating to get some elint idea of target location . then i would get within missile range . alot harder for the tico . and launch missiles on a bearing only mode. then get the hell out of dodge. if the kirov or tico got a wiff of me i was toast in the other ship . the tico could shoot my missiles down fairly easily and then return fire. and vs versa. being a game it does not simultae reality but . it is well known as a very accurate game in some respects. i would like to add that the hardest ship to defend against in the game was the sovremny. as the ss-n-22 sunburn was very hard to deal with . if you got in range of it and had not killed the dd you were toast.

[Legend]

Kirov has... had CIWS capability? And how effective? I know the Tico had Phalanx, which could take down a few missiles fairly accurately before a slow reload...

[Bgile]

I believe the Russian CGN's have 8 of the Russian Phalanx equivalents. It's a ship about 3 times the displacement of a US CG.

[Legend]

Do we have accurate info on these CIWS? What's their percentage of shoot-downs?

[lwd]

If we did it would be classified. Which leads to another question we can't answer. EW suites. A lot of this battle would be in that areana and most of it is classified and will remain so for a goodly amount of time. EW is a real crap shoot. If you guessed right you can shut the other guy down with very little effort and if you guessed wrong he can return the favor. Then sometimes even if you (or he) guessed right nature can step in and take a hand.

[andraxxus]

The problem about this scenario is that The latest Tico's role is medium to short range air defence and latest kirov's role is both long short range air defence, long range anti-shipping and anti-submarine. If we are to compare these ships.... here we go:
ADGM on Kirov:
12x8 96 SA-N-6 long range ADGM complex on kirov with 200 km effective range by using 48N6E2 missiles, comperable to Patriot missiles. TOP DOME and TOMB STONE radars, when combined, can each direct 24 missiles to 12 different targets. SA-N-6 complex also uses 9M96E2 missiles which use active radar and can engage unlimited number of targets within 90 Km range. for medium range complex uses 5V55 or 9M82 missiles with 40 km ranges.
16x8 128 SA-N-9 short range ADGM. 9K931M 12 km ranged missiles and 4 CROSS SWORD radars can each direct 4 missiles to 2 different targets. in missile defence mode system has 8 seconds response time.
2x2 +40 reload SA-N-4 short range ADGM 9K33M3 missiles, 15 km range, two Fire control radars (i forgot its name) can direct 4 missiles to 2 targets, missiles also have electro optical mode for heavy ECM environments.

ADGM on Ticonderoga:
122x Mk-41 VLS tubes, contaning RIM-66M-2 with 74 km range or RIM-162 with 50 km range medium range missiles. 4 SPG-62 radars can direct 8 missiles 4 different targets in total.

Anti-shipping capabilities Kirov:
20x P-700 Granit SSM (7 ton missiles, 625 km range, 750 kg warhead, ~3060 km/h speed)
SA-N-6 complexes 5V55 and 48N6E2 missiles can be used up to 40 km range with radio command, note that 48N6E2 missiles weigh 1.8 tons and have 150 kg warhead, and über 7200 km/h speed!!!

Anti-shipping capabilities of Ticonderoga:
2x4 RGM-84D Harpoon (628 kg weight, 138 km range, 221 kg warhead, 850 km/h speed)
RIM-66 + RAMs can be used at visual range with secondary IR guidance. (62 kg warhead, mach 3.5 speed)

CIWS of Kirov:
6x Kashtan-M : Each system has its own search and tracking radar, has two Gsh-6-30 30milimetre gattling guns, and 8x ready to fire SA-N-11 missiles. Missiles have 8 km effective range and guns have 5. system can engage 1 target with missiles and another with guns. Guns have total rate of fire of 12000 rounds/per minute and 24 more missiles are stored underdeck within the auto-reloading mechanism.
2x SA-N-10: system use Igla missiles with improved seekers for engaging inbound missiles. each SA-N-10 launcher has two missiles and in order to improve effectivness, both missiles are fired in a single salvo. no idea about realoads, but reloading is by hand. range: 5 km

CIWS of Ticonderoga:
2x Phalanx CIWS has a single M61 Vulcan 20milimetre gattling guns, firing deplated uranium shells, effective range is 4 km and max rate of fire 4000 rounds per minute.
1x RIM-116 SeaRAM is positioned next to the harpoon launcher. System has 11 missiles and system can theoratically engage 11 different targets if given time. effective range is 8 km.

Guns of Kirov:
1x AK-130 dual 130mm gun, rate of fire: 80 rounds per minute (yes it is correct) 23 km ballistic range.

Guns of Ticonderoga:
2x 5''/54 caliber Mark45 gun: 127 mm, rate of fire 20 rounds per minute 24 km ballistic range.

ASW capabilities of Kirov:
1x 10 RBU-1000 Anti submarine / anti torpedo rockets
2x 6 RBU-Udav Anti submarine / anti torpedo rockets
10x 533 mm torpedo tubes, including wake homing torpedoes and stand-off ASW missiles, 20 total.

ASW capabilities of Ticonderoga:
2x3 Mk-32 324 mm torpedo tubes
RUM-139 VL-Asroc from MK-41 VLS tubes.

Airwing of Kirov:
An underdeck hangar for 3 helicopters, Additional 2 helicopters can be carried externally next to the hangar doors without disrupting air operations.

Airwing of Ticonderoga:
Hangar for 2 helicopters.

Armour of Kirov: Kelvar type,
50-70 mm SA-N-6 complex
50-80 mm Granit complex
75-100 mm reactor compartment.

Armour of Ticonderoga: Kelvar type
unknown amount around Mk-41 clusters.

General characteristics of Kirov:
max speed: 32 knots
range: unlimited using nuclear reactors, 1500km @ 10 knots using emergency boilers

General characteristics of Ticonderoga
max speed: 32 knots
range: 11000 km @ 20 knots, 6000 km @ 30 knots

[andraxxus]

I think the displacement does make a difference. Russian ship designers does not live in caves In terms of weight, Kirov has 3 times more air defense payload, 28 times more antiship payload. It can also carry 3 more helicopters. There is also more place for electronics, and becouse of that, it has two different 3D air/surface search radars, three different sattelite communication radars, 4 different electronic warfare suites, and 17 different firecontrol radars. And it makes sense kirov has three times the displacement of Ticonderoga. It would be more appropirate to compare Tico with a Slava. Not in anti-shipping or Land attack capability but maybe in power projection, ASW capability, air defence capability etc.