Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

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dahlhorse
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Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by dahlhorse »

What would have happened in Operation Rheinubung had Tirpitz been accompanying Bismarck instead of Prinz Eugen?
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by dunmunro »

Tirpitz was not ready for operations in May 1941. The probable result would have been the loss of both KM BBs.
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by dahlhorse »

Isn't that why these are called hypothetical engagements? Hypothtical means "existing as or involving something that exists as an unproven idea, theory, or possibility"
dunmunro wrote:Tirpitz was not ready for operations in May 1941. The probable result would have been the loss of both KM BBs.
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by dunmunro »

dahlhorse wrote:Isn't that why these are called hypothetical engagements? Hypothtical means "existing as or involving something that exists as an unproven idea, theory, or possibility"
dunmunro wrote:Tirpitz was not ready for operations in May 1941. The probable result would have been the loss of both KM BBs.
Perhaps you can state where your proposal parts with the historical timeline? IE is Tirpitz now worked up, or not?

For example, if you postulate that the KM gets Tirpitz in service sooner, we could also postulate that the RN commissions DoY in April, rather than Aug 1941. We could also speculate on the RN maintaining priority in building Anson and Howe, or that Victorious was worked up earlier and had a full complement of aircraft in May 1941 with experienced crews.

Finally, Tovey could have rolled the dice and allocated all 4 of his fast BBs to Holland, giving him KGV, PoW, Hood and Repulse, Victorious, 4 CLs and about 15 DDs. That should have been enough, I would think, to have made the issue certain, even against a fully worked up Bismarck and Tirpitz.
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by David89 »

Assuming that Tirpitz is not worked up, then you have Bismarck, Tirpitz, and Prinz Eugen in company. Because recon will have picked up the greater German strengh, Tovey is not going to split his force and the battle of Denmark Straight will not happen, he will use the cruisers to shadow the German fleet and move his own fleet together to intercept at a later time.

At Tovey's imediate disposal are King George V, Prince of Wales, Hood and Repulse. If Tovey is prepared to wait before engaging, he can have Rodney, Renown and Ramillies as further support. Even if Tovey engages as soon as possible, he will have the two KGVs and the two battlecruisers, and all the British ships except Prince of Wales are fully worked up, while Tirpitz will be in the same unprepared state as PoW.

If the German fleet targets KGV and PoW then the British will win the battle without losses, only damage to the KGVs, while if the target is the two battlecruisers one or both battlecruisers will be sunk or badly damaged, but not before Bismarck and Tirpitz are damaged, and the KGVs will finish them off. Prinz Eugen is only a minor issue, Tovey will have Norfolk and Suffolk to deal with her.
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by Bgile »

I think that if Tovey declines to intercept them in the DS, he may have a serious problem intercepting them at all. Once they get into the open ocean there will come a time when visibility improves to the point where they can turn on the British cruisers and destroy them or at least make it impossible to continue shadowing.

I think Tirpitz had bigger teething problems than PoW, but I'm not sure what they were. Wasn't she several months away from being fully operational?
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

I´m afraid things are not so easy and pro-allied. If it´s so, why is it that the allies normally need numerical superiority or a bigger vessel to deal with a German ship? At River Plate we had three cruisers against a 10,000 ton raider; at Rheinubung we had Hood, PoW, Suffolk, Norfolk, Ark Royal, Sheffield, destroyers, Dorsetshire, KGV and Rodney to sink a lone BB; at North Cape it was DoY RDFC´s 14" plus some friends to sink 11" Schanhorst...
The Tirpitz with Bismarck Scenario is a danger bigger than the sum of the parts for the British. Of course, is quite easy to say: "Oh yeah, Tovey would do this and would do that and the Hood will cross the evil German "T" and win the day." Everybody forget that Tovey sent an aging BC with a brand new and unreliable BB believing he would tackle the original German Squadron, no sweat. If Tovey was such a genius he would never exposed his forces the way he did. It wasn´t Tovey the guy that, just for rage, on May 27th close his BBs so much to Bismarck that their artillery proved ineffective against it´s enemy´s vitals???
It´s hypotethical, ok, so: where is the certainity that allied recon would pick the Squadron properly? There are numerous examples of recon faulty reports. And if the Germans sent one Squadron a day behind the other, so to close order when leaving Norwegian waters? What if the Tovey sent KGV, or Repulse (a german dream), with Hood and Pow to find themselves against Bismarck, Tirpitz, PE and, maybe, Hipper? Well? Or if he choose to wait to see where the Germans decide to break thru and missed them? That´s beautiful: two Bismarck class + 2 cruisers set loose in the Atlantic. Schanhorst and Gnesineau didn´t did bad on their raid (even with Lutjens as boss). Why we must suppose the Bismarck´s twins will do bad? As far as we know they could find Britannic in the middle of the Atlantic full of troops and send it to the bottom of the ocean. Or finding Rodney escorting a convoy and trapping it between a crossfire of 15" guns (if 2 vs 1 worked for the allies then it could have worked pretty well for the Germans too).
But the good DS scenario (which has been discussed before) of two Bismarck Class against an also bigger British Squadron is a tempting. And the free suposition that the allies will win because they have too is the same kind of thought that sent Hood´s crew to their watery grave on May 24th. Underestimation is the first and biggest mistake any commander could make.
But, what if Tovey, as the hindsight genius many claim he was, sent "just" Hood and PoW to find themselves against two Bismarck Class + PE. Oh boy: the Japanese might need to find another BB to sink on December 10th becuase PoW would have been resting under the Atlantic the last seven months.
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by dunmunro »

Karl, I'm not stating that Tovey would have made the right call, what I said was:

"Finally, Tovey could have rolled the dice and allocated all 4 of his fast BBs to Holland..."

There's a possibility that he would not have done that, but such a force including a CV, even one with so few aircraft would have posed a serious threat to any KM force. This scenario would have caused problems for the RN, but I am suggesting that the RN would have adopted counter-measures to mount a strong response, depending on the degree of advance warning. Swapping Victorious for Ark Royal would have also helped Tovey immensely.
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by David89 »

First off, I am assuming that since British Intelligence correctly identified Bismarck and Prinz Eugen, Tirpitz would also be correctly identified if she was in the same force at the same time. Now since Tovey would know that Hood and the unworked up PoW could not hope to defeat two modern battleships, and since he could not know that Tirpitz was no better prepared than PoW, there is little or no chance of him splitting up his forces. Likewise, he would not isolate KGV by sending Repulse to join PoW and Hood, so at the very least there will be KGV, PoW, Hood and Repulse together, with the possibility of further reinforcements from Renown, Rodney and Ramillies. Tovey does not need to be a genius commander to keep his ships together, it would be extremely and obviously stupid for him to divide the forces he has when he knows he is facing such a powerful enemy.

Tovey's decision to divide his forces was based on the fact that he was more likely to intercept Bismarck if he covered the only two boltholes, and since he appeared to have sufficient strengh to do so that is what he did.

Interception would certainly be possible, since the force of screening cruisers can sit back beyond the effective gun range of Bismarck or Tirpitz and keep track with radar, remember that the British cruisers only lost contact when PE and Bismarck parted company and unless Lutjens wishes to split up his battleships then he will be unable to lose his shadowers, while Tovey can move his battleships to intercept. So long as contact is maintained then it would be easy for Tovey bring the German fleet to battle, since Bismarck and Tirpitz would be moving towards him and all he needs to do is set an intercept course across the German line of advance.

Tovey made only one significant error, and that was closing the range too much when trying to sink the Bismarck, and this was of little consequence. The other two errors made, that of sending Hood and PoW straight at Bismarck and PE, thus allowing the German squadron to cross the T, and leading the battle line with Hood, were made by Holland, and should not be attributed to Tovey. Neither error would have occured if the British had the 4 BBs together, since KGV would have been the flagship and thus leader of the battleline, and if Tovey was trying to intercept futher east it would have been the Germans moving towards the British, so it is more likely that the British will cross the T, rather than the other way round. However I believe Lutjens would turn and go broadside on to British battleline, so no one will be crossing the T. Either way this would be a fight the British would win.
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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

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Either way this would be a fight the British would win.
They would win it with the almost infinite numerical superiority you mentioned: KGV, Hood, Repulse, PoW and Hood plus Norfolk and Suffolk against Bismarck, Tirpitz and PE. Again a 2,33 - 1 superiority.
Substract one capital vessel to the British and things will not look so good. Subtract two (even Hood) and then the edge is on the German side. Because, any way you look it, the German BBs were more modern, faster, better protected and with very fine artillery (it´s not likely that Tirpitz would be handicaped as PoW in the same circumstances. PoW´s failures were due to problems in her quadruple mounts which Tirpitz designers were wise enough not to build). The KGV Class ships, as fine as they were (and beautiful too) were no superior to the German BBs; Repulse was a reminder of the British intention of avenge Jutland and Hood, well, we know quite well her flaws.
What if we add to the German side, in this Der Tag, one more heavy cruiser: Hipper? If PE did so many damage to Hood and PoW we can multiply that for two and we have two behemoth BBs hammering badly aging British warships (I don´t believe Repulse could stand a lot of damage as neither were able Hood, Invincible, Indomitable or Queen Mary).
But if Tovey decided to have his forces glued together the Germans could break thru into the Altantic and this fleet tactic would not work at all. He would have to disperse his patrols in order to search into the ocean only to find a German fast raiding force with 16 x 15" + 16 x 8" waiting for a not-numerical superior squadron ready for a butchery. Let´s say Bismarck, Tirpitz + PE and Hipper are found by KGV + Repulse; or Rodney + Hood, or Repulse + PoW... Add the number of cruisers you find proper. Or what if the Germans find Ark Royal as Schanhorst found Glorious?
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by lwd »

Karl Heidenreich wrote:.... If it´s so, why is it that the allies normally need numerical superiority or a bigger vessel to deal with a German ship?
Because the objective is not to give the other guy an even break. Unless necessary you don't commit equal or inferior forces to battle.
... Everybody forget that Tovey sent an aging BC with a brand new and unreliable BB believing he would tackle the original German Squadron, no sweat. If Tovey was such a genius he would never exposed his forces the way he did.
Sorry I believe you are wrong here. Tovey took a chance but it wasn't that big of one. In this case when he rolled the dice they came up snake eyes. Hood and POW should have been able to handle Bismark and Eugen.
It´s hypotethical, ok, so: where is the certainity that allied recon would pick the Squadron properly? There are numerous examples of recon faulty reports.
[/quote]
If it's a general hypothetical fight you can impose whatever constraints you want. However when one says what if we modify X. Then generally it's desireable to identify the point of departure (POD) and consider reasonable alternative for both sides from that point on. For the stated scenario you basically have 3 options:
1) Tirpitz is ready sooner.
2) The operation starts later.
3) Tirpitz is sent to sea without completing her trials.
In either of the first 2 the RN will have a significant time to react to the situation.
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by lwd »

Karl Heidenreich wrote:They would win it with the almost infinite numerical superiority you mentioned: KGV, Hood, Repulse, PoW and Hood plus Norfolk and Suffolk against Bismarck, Tirpitz and PE. Again a 2,33 - 1 superiority.
Now you think Hood is so good you count her twice? I count 4 capital ships (2 BBs and 2 BCs) vs 2 (BBs) and 2 cruisers vs 1. That looks like 2:1 to me if I'm being generous. In tonnage I'm not even sure it's 3:2.
Substract one capital vessel to the British and things will not look so good. Subtract two (even Hood) and then the edge is on the German side.
Strategically the 2 KGV's and 2 CAs vs the 3 German ships have a very good chance of winning. Tactically they may well get the worst of the exchange but it's a near thing.
Because, any way you look it, the German BBs were more modern, faster, better protected and with very fine artillery (it´s not likely that Tirpitz would be handicaped as PoW in the same circumstances. PoW´s failures were due to problems in her quadruple mounts which Tirpitz designers were wise enough not to build).
The may be bigger and faster. More modern is debatable. Better protected is also debateable depending on how you count protection. I thought the German BBs had some problems with their shell hoists jamming during trials. Propulsion problems could well be fatal. The general assumption that Tirpitz wouldn't suffer from significant problems is unwarranted based on the data submitted. Someone familiar with her trials might be able to confirm or deny this. Remember it was not unknown for German ships to have significant problems on trials even trials after refits.
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by David89 »

Karl Heidenreich wrote:
Either way this would be a fight the British would win.
They would win it with the almost infinite numerical superiority you mentioned: KGV, Hood, Repulse, PoW and Hood plus Norfolk and Suffolk against Bismarck, Tirpitz and PE. Again a 2,33 - 1 superiority.
Substract one capital vessel to the British and things will not look so good. Subtract two (even Hood) and then the edge is on the German side. Because, any way you look it, the German BBs were more modern, faster, better protected and with very fine artillery (it´s not likely that Tirpitz would be handicaped as PoW in the same circumstances. PoW´s failures were due to problems in her quadruple mounts which Tirpitz designers were wise enough not to build). The KGV Class ships, as fine as they were (and beautiful too) were no superior to the German BBs; Repulse was a reminder of the British intention of avenge Jutland and Hood, well, we know quite well her flaws.
What if we add to the German side, in this Der Tag, one more heavy cruiser: Hipper? If PE did so many damage to Hood and PoW we can multiply that for two and we have two behemoth BBs hammering badly aging British warships (I don´t believe Repulse could stand a lot of damage as neither were able Hood, Invincible, Indomitable or Queen Mary).
But if Tovey decided to have his forces glued together the Germans could break thru into the Altantic and this fleet tactic would not work at all. He would have to disperse his patrols in order to search into the ocean only to find a German fast raiding force with 16 x 15" + 16 x 8" waiting for a not-numerical superior squadron ready for a butchery. Let´s say Bismarck, Tirpitz + PE and Hipper are found by KGV + Repulse; or Rodney + Hood, or Repulse + PoW... Add the number of cruisers you find proper. Or what if the Germans find Ark Royal as Schanhorst found Glorious?
I was under the impression that we were looking at what would really have happened if Tirpitz's captain had said his ship was ready to accompany Bismarck and Prinz Eugen, rather than creating a non historical fair fight. But considering the scenario in which the German force does manage to slip past Toveys fleet, which is unlikely, Bismarck and Tirpitz have a slight speed advantage over the British battleships, since KGV, PoW, Repulse and Hood can't exceed 29kts while Bismarck and Tirpitz can reach 30kts. In a 1v1 fight, only KGV and PoW are a match for Bismarck and Tirpitz, so Tovey will be forced to avoid numerically equal fights. Now at his disposal are the fast BBs KGV, PoW, Hood, Renown and Repulse along with the slow BBs Rodney and Ramillies. Nelson is also availible if Tovey is able to wait a couple of days. Since Tovey tried to create two equal groups prior to DS, I believe he would do so again here. This will perforce be a fast and a slow group so you have a fast group consisting of KGV, PoW and one of the battlecruisers, while Rodney, Ramillies and the other two battlecruisers make up the slow group. Either group is stronger than the German force, but an engagement with the slow group is not likely to result in casualties on either side since the Germans will want to avoid combat and can use their speed to do so. Further subdivision is unlikely, since the only pair that could take on the German force would be KGV and PoW, a slow group of Rodney and Ramillies could not, and neither could the three battlecruisers.

Ark Royal is likely to remain behind or with the British battleships providing recon support and is thus unlikely to run across the German force alone. Bismarck and Tirpitz are a fair match for KGV and PoW, but at long range the KGVs have a distinct advantage due to their better deck armour. PoW's mechanical faults at DS are likely to be a thing of the past, remember that with the civilian technitions still working onboard mechanical faults would get less likely as time passed. All the faults suffered by PoW's quads at DS were drill errors rather than mechanical breakdowns, and with more time to prepare the crew should be able to get in some practise, maybe even have a test shoot with 10 or so rounds of HC per gun. So PoW's condition will improve with time, though the same thing could be said of Tirpitz.
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by dunmunro »

David89 wrote:[ But considering the scenario in which the German force does manage to slip past Toveys fleet, which is unlikely, Bismarck and Tirpitz have a slight speed advantage over the British battleships, since KGV, PoW, Repulse and Hood can't exceed 29kts while Bismarck and Tirpitz can reach 30kts.
Pow's log indicates that both she and Hood averaged 29.1 knots from 05:00 to 06:00, on May 24th. Hood made 28.8 knots on trials in March 1941 with paravanes streamed, and it is estimated that this caused a .5 knot loss in speed. I doubt that either Bismarck or Tirpitz could make 30knots when fully, or nearly fully loaded. Additionally, Tirpitz's machinery suffered from numerous defects, mainly steam lines breaking.

My own feeling is that Tovey would have kept all his fast BB/BCs in one squadron, and maybe formed a slow squadron based on Iceland to plug the DS. A mixed fast/slow squadron creates many tactical complications as the formation must split up to engage a faster enemy force.
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by David89 »

dunmunro wrote: My own feeling is that Tovey would have kept all his fast BB/BCs in one squadron, and maybe formed a slow squadron based on Iceland to plug the DS. A mixed fast/slow squadron creates many tactical complications as the formation must split up to engage a faster enemy force.
So if the German squadron does slip past, which is not particularly likely, since the obvious move for Tovey is to put KGV, PoW, Hood and Repulse west of Iceland, from where they can cover both Denmark Straight and the Faroes Island gap, moving in to intercept as soon as the shadowing cruisers confirm the German squadron's route, then Tovey will have KGV, PoW, Hood, Renown, and Repulse with which to hunt them down. And the suggestion of a seperate slow squadron based around Iceland is excellent, since it frees up all the fast BBs and BCs to hunt down the German squadron, while Rodney and Ramillies, reinforced by Nelson and any of the other slow BBs that can reach the area in time should have little problem stoping the German squadron if they attempt to slip back past the fast squadron and return to Norway, providing that the British can continue to shadow the German squadron with cruisers or aircraft.
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