Size is not so important as tonnage sunk and convoy cycles disrupted. Bismarck did not have the chance to attack convoys so Rheinubung did not achieve anything except for the loss of Hood. But matters could have been very different and what actually happened does not prove or disprove Bismarck's suitability as a surface raider in my view.
As we all know Royal Navy contested quite well the Bismarck menace. With the sinking of Bismarck any plan of disrupting convoy duties with powerfull surface units come down to shreds. It was unoavoidable. And later in the war we see that the small efforts in that direction were frustated by the RN and USN.
So, what Germany really won by building so big vessels (real combat units) and plan to use them as raiders? Not a single thing. If you have a device for a specific duty and you cannot use it for that, or it fails, then the whole concept fails.
Best regards.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. Sir Winston Churchill
What the KM accomplished with their BB/BCs was to tie down large numbers of Allied capital ships on escort duties, which could have been better used elsewhere, such as providing gunfire support to Allied invasions and land operations near coastal regions.
dunmunro wrote:What the KM accomplished with their BB/BCs was to tie down large numbers of Allied capital ships on escort duties, which could have been better used elsewhere, such as providing gunfire support to Allied invasions and land operations near coastal regions.
On the other hand, there were large numbers of old Allied battleships which were just as capable of carrying out coastal bombardment duties, but not very useful for intercepting faster, moderner ships. And by the time the Allies did need ships for those bombardment missions, Tirpitz was the only survivor. Its hard to argue that the battleships used to prevent Tirpitz from breaking out would have made a difference to the wars course had they been elsewhere.
North Carolina was cheered by the other ships present when she sailed into Pearl Harbor for the first time. She was the only allied fast battleship in the Pacific. In fact, I think at the time she was the only battleship in theatre that was fit to fight. The ships sent to the Atlantic were desperately needed in the Pacific.
Cruisers were also needed desperately after the Savo Island debacle, and I think the first new CA (Wichita) was sent to the Atlantic.
So, what Germany really won by building so big vessels (real combat units) and plan to use them as raiders? Not a single thing. If you have a device for a specific duty and you cannot use it for that, or it fails, then the whole concept fails.
Best regards.
Your first sentence asks a fair question, your second sentence then gives a wrong answer. Prior to Rheinubung Germany's big ships did achieve success against Allied shipping, even though they were used in one's and (in the case of Operation Berlin) two's.
Up to May 1941 it wasn't a failure (but neither a complete success).
But even Tirpitz was a success - as a threat. It didn't sink anything, but again it didn't need to.
In answer to the question posed by David89 I would mention that the ships guarding against Tirpitz and the other heavy ships in the Norwegian fjords were effectively prevented from being deployed in the Pacific. As I have argued eleswhere one of the main beneficiaries of the activities (or inactivities) of the Tirpitz were the Japanese.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
RF wrote: In answer to the question posed by David89 I would mention that the ships guarding against Tirpitz and the other heavy ships in the Norwegian fjords were effectively prevented from being deployed in the Pacific. As I have argued eleswhere one of the main beneficiaries of the activities (or inactivities) of the Tirpitz were the Japanese.
But what would these ships have been able to acomplish in the Pacific had they been availible there? I'm sure they could have been usefull, but by 1942 when Anson and Howe were commisioned the USN had the South Dakota class in service, yet the South Dakota's were sent to the Atlantic and Mediterranean, which to me is evidence that the Allied forces in the Pacific were not in any great need of battleships. Had the modern battleships been in the Pacific, I believe they would have been used as carrier escorts and hence seen little surface action. And since carriers were needed in the Mediterranean theatre, and the armour decked British carriers were rather well suited to operating close to land, these carriers would probably have been deployed around the Mediterranean or used to provide air cover to close the Atlantic gap.
RF wrote: In answer to the question posed by David89 I would mention that the ships guarding against Tirpitz and the other heavy ships in the Norwegian fjords were effectively prevented from being deployed in the Pacific. As I have argued eleswhere one of the main beneficiaries of the activities (or inactivities) of the Tirpitz were the Japanese.
But what would these ships have been able to acomplish in the Pacific had they been availible there? I'm sure they could have been usefull, but by 1942 when Anson and Howe were commisioned the USN had the South Dakota class in service, yet the South Dakota's were sent to the Atlantic and Mediterranean, which to me is evidence that the Allied forces in the Pacific were not in any great need of battleships. Had the modern battleships been in the Pacific, I believe they would have been used as carrier escorts and hence seen little surface action. And since carriers were needed in the Mediterranean theatre, and the armour decked British carriers were rather well suited to operating close to land, these carriers would probably have been deployed around the Mediterranean or used to provide air cover to close the Atlantic gap.
Operation Pedestal, in Aug 1942, was the make it or break it point for Malta. At 2nd Sirte, the RN fought BBs with Dido class CLs. I have a feeling that the sailors fighting the convoys through to Malta might have appreciated the company of the fast BBs, tied down guarding against a Tirpitz breakout.
Some time ago, it seems light years ago, I wrote the following hypothetical scenario for a Bismarck + Tirpitz scenario (I reckon that there are some modifications from the original one):
"1. Bismarck + PE steamed from Gotenhafen, via Great Belt, to Norway. Lutjens commands at Bismarck. The Squadron is sighted by the Swedish cruiser and by norwegian resistance. They alert the British. Norfolk and Suffolk go to patrol at the Straits, Hood + PoW steam to Iceland, the KGV + Repulse stay at Scapa FLow.
2. In full coordination the Tirpitz + Hipper had crossed earlier the Kiel Canal and steamed at dusk the same evening the Bismarck and PE are at the Norwegian Fiord.
3. The British air raid find the fiord empty the following morning. Home Fleet began to deploy.
4. Tirpitz + Hipper follow Bismarck + PE some sixty to eighty miles behind: close enough to bring support in case of need but far enough for, in case of being detected, made the enemy thought theere are a sole Squadron.
5. Norfolk and Suffolk sighted Bismarck + PE. At dawn the following day Hood + PoW intercept. As in History: Hood is blown but this time PoW gives a hard fight. In addtidion to the already known hits PoW strikes Bismarck at the Anton turret, blowing it and damaging a Fire Control Dome and the funnel. The Bismarck lists heavy to port and fights several fires. But the PoW 4 gun aft turret jammed. The Bismarck puts her hit at the PoW´s bridge while PE is bussy trying to find a firing solution to spit a couple of torpedoes at her. The Norfolk and Suffolk are ordered to engage to save the British capital ship. And then Suffolk blows sky high as Tirpitz, coming out of the midst and from a "dead" radar coverage, engages. The Hipper runs behind the Norfolk. PE finally gets a firing solution and the PoW stops cold and began to list. The Bismarck gives the PoW´s crew chance to abandon her. Finally the British crew scuttles the doomed ship.
6. Lutjens is aware that Bismarck has heavy damage so he transfer flag to Tirpitz. The Bismarck steams north, via Denmarck Straits, back home. Nobody is going to follow her. The Tirpitz (without damage), the PE (lightly damaged) and the Hipper steam south, southeast without the cruisers shadowing.
7. KGV + Repulse + Victorious scrambles from Scapa FLow. The Rodney is ordered to break convoy escort and join. H-Force is ordered to get out Gibraltar and cover the French waters.
8. In the middle of the night the Ark Royal is suddenly attacked: Schanhorst had left French port the previous evening and had intercept Force H. When it is going to finish the Carrier the Renown gets into the fight and overwhelming the Schanhorst. The German unit finally sinks in a huge explosion. Ark Royal transfer it´s crew to Renown just in time before the CV sinks.
9. Renown re-joins the hunt for the Tirpitz after Ark Royal crew is safe aboard Shefield and a couple of destroyers.
10. Tirpitz + 2 cruisers are sighted by a Catalina. The British change their course in order to intercept. The Swordfish planes of Victorious attack the Germans. This time, with AA support of three ships, the British attack failed completely and some of the aircraft are shot down.
11. The German Squadron is intercepted, finally by the KGV + Rodney + a couple of cruisers. Renown is too far away to matter. "
Now, it´s up to them:
Germans: One BB + two heavy cruisers
British: Two BB + two light cruisers
But now the German BB is not damaged and is just not doing 7 knots: it´s fully operational and doing 29 knots. Will the Germans disengage and turn, being able to do that because Rodney is too slow? If they do that KGV + cruiser will pursuit leaving Rodney behind butr risking a combat without numerical superiority?
Best regards...
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. Sir Winston Churchill
My problem with this scenario is the same as it's always been.
In the actual engagement, both forces were moving at high speed. So fast in fact, the British cruisers were unable to participate in the action because they couldn't catch up fast enough to close the range.
Given this situation, how is Tirpitz going to close 60 to 80 miles on all these ships? How would she even close 1 mile, let alone 60 to 80, when Norfolk and suffolk couldn't close on Bismarck?
lwd wrote:There's also the question of how she manages to stay in the blind spot of the cruisers the entire time. And isn't spotted by the lookouts.
I can answer that one. If she is 30+ miles behind the cruisers she is too far a way for them to see each other. I think the idea is they have their radars trained ahead looking at Bismarck and Tirpitz isn't visible due to weather until she is close enough to engage decisively. Of course, if they see her first she possibly gets torpedoed.
But doesn't that require Bismark the cruisers and Tirpitz to all be in one line? How big was that blind spot? I suspect it doesn't take a huge amount of maneuvering for Tirptiz to be out of the blind spot. Looking at the movement charts at: http://www.bismarck-class.dk/bismarck/d ... onomi.html
It doesn't look to me like the geometry is at all favorable to this.
Given this situation, how is Tirpitz going to close 60 to 80 miles on all these ships? How would she even close 1 mile, let alone 60 to 80, when Norfolk and suffolk couldn't close on Bismarck?
The only answer is that the Second German Squadron had been approaching for the last 24 hours expecting resistance at the exit of DS.
lwd:
There's also the question of how she manages to stay in the blind spot of the cruisers the entire time. And isn't spotted by the lookouts.
First, radars weren´t that good and they were trained on the combat. Second the look outs could have detected the second Squadron incoming, which put the cruisers in very bad shape: run and hide or engage? They are British so they would engage. The result is, likely, the same: Tirpitz blows at least one of them. Both German Squadrons are still a couple of hours to rendevouz if maintaining the same course and speed.
But, as a matter of fact, this scenario looks more unlikely every time I saw it. As Bgile points it quite dificult that the Germans could manage to conceal their Squadrons. OK: war is about a lot of luck and this could happened, but is not likely. I´m thinking in a better one but I need time...
Best regards
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. Sir Winston Churchill
There's also the question of how she manages to stay in the blind spot of the cruisers the entire time. And isn't spotted by the lookouts.
First, radars weren´t that good and they were trained on the combat.
Hmm, I've been assuming the British search radars swept their entire field of regard periodically. Ie they weren't trained on a particular spot. That's based more on knowledge of later systems than of the British systems however. While the radars of the time weren't perfect I wouldn't give a BB and a CA a good chance of sneaking up on a radar equiped ship that was looking. This is particularly true if as would probably be the case that the British knew all 4 German ships were at sea.
Second the look outs could have detected the second Squadron incoming, which put the cruisers in very bad shape: run and hide or engage? They are British so they would engage. ...
They didn't engage Bismark why would they engage Tirpitz? Much more important to shadow her.
