Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

[Bgile]

Continuously in launch a few planes then an hour or so later launch a few more. It's not like your trying to launch a big strike at any one point in time. Also without the torpedos did the British CVs really have to turn into the wind to launch a Swordfish?

I don't know. I know that typically carriers turned into the wind for launch and recovery. Intuitively it seems like it would be very hard to land or take off from a postage stamp with a tailwind or side wind. I know it wasn't as simple as just drawing an arc on the map and assuming it is covered continuously. Sometimes it was hard to find an entire enemy fleet. When you read books about it, launching ONE search sweep seems like a big deal unless it's land based aircraft.

I guess my point here is Tovey thought he had to split up his battleships to cover the German Breakout. Now we sub a german battleship and you think that it becomes easier to find them than historically. I don't understand why that would be. I suspect conditions in the area made searching harder than it would seem by just looking at a map.

[lwd]

...
I guess my point here is Tovey thought he had to split up his battleships to cover the German Breakout. Now we sub a german battleship and you think that it becomes easier to find them than historically. I don't understand why that would be. I suspect conditions in the area made searching harder than it would seem by just looking at a map.

Ah now I understand your objections. We have been miss understanding each other I suspect. It was suggested that when the German ships cleared Norway they headed north to refuel and wait for bad weather to break out. My feeling is that this would take enough time after the intial rush to cover the gaps that when the British analyzed the situation the reasonable course would be to assume the Germans did exactly that. If they then proceed on that assumption they have time to get more search vessels (cruisers and DDs) and change the postion of their BBs as well as Victorious to give them a good chance of finding the Germans. It's not a sure thing by any means and is very weather dependent. However I think there is a very good chance that the British find the German ships if they don't head back for Norway. In essence I see two big problems with this plan on the part of the Germans:
1) It gives the British more time to react.
2) It moves the Germans into an area where they have more restricted movement and that is likely to be investigated by the British (and gives them the time to do so).

[Bgile]

Interesting. I don't think there were any extra cruisers available, and the destroyers were generally kept together with larger units that could refuel them.

How long do you think it would be before Tovey went north? After all the British don't know where the German ships are, since they didn't show up in Norway. Would there be an opportunity for them to simply hang out West of Norway and after a day or two simply go West and pass south of iceland behind the British? I know that historically they had 3 different possible routes to the North Atlantic. If the British charged off north that seems to me to open up the southern route to the Germans, leaving all the faster British ships hopelessly behind them.

There is another tactic the Germans could have used, and I don't entirely understand why they didn't. Why not fake the breakout and instead send a couple of U-boats to scout the Denmark strait? It seems to me they have a good chance to sink two British CAs. They could do the same thing with the other two breakout routes, although the northern ones have the best possibilities. Maybe there wasn't much cooperation between the two commands?

Also, imagine the possibilities of S&G could have sailed from Brest while the British were so preoccupied with covering the possible battleship routes. Were they damaged so badly this simply wasn't possible, or were the Germans too picky about their level of repair? How about just one of them?

[lwd]

I think it was mentioned here that the British BBs left their DDs behind because they couldn't keep up. This implied to me that they were in a real hurry to establish the screen. It does imply that DDs were available. I'm not sure about more crusers. Victorius also would take a bit of time to get there I suspect as historically she wasn't in on the action. Now hoe long they wait before heading north is a good question. It's not even clear that they would head north just a good bet as far as I'm concerned. Given more time the British may also be able to find more cruisers they can use. If all the Germans were going to do was head north and refuel I can't see that costing them more than a day. But if they wait for "bad" weather to aid their break out then you may be looking at several days and that may just give the RN too much time.

As for the twins. If I'm reading this
(http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ ... rions.html)
correctly Gneisenau was hit by a torpedo on 6 May and 4 bombs on 11 May. As far as Scharnhorst is concerned
(http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ ... rions.html) it just says:

Stationed in Brest, target of many British air attacks. Scharnhorst is hit by 5 bombs while temporarily anchored in La Pallice which cause severe damage.

[dunmunro]

The DD's couldn't keep up, and were told by Holland to follow at their best speed, but they did manage to keep up anyways...but Holland detached them to search for Bismarck, after W-W lost contact for a few hours.

The thing to remember is that Holland was not, initially, heading for the DS. He was heading for Hvalfiord to refuel and possibly wait for contact with Bismarck. If Tovey had decided to keep his entire force together, they probably would have done the same, or used Hvalfiord as a rendezvous point. a several day delay would have given Tovey time to refuel and collect his entire force to strike Lutjens.

[RF]

bgile,

The original German plan for Rheinubung envisaged Scharnhorst and Gneisenau breaking out of Brest and joining Bismarck and Prinz Eugen in the Atlantic.

However the Gneisenau I believe was hit by an aerial torpedo in an air raid and Scharnhorst's boilers were under repair, removing them both from the equation. It was at that point Lutjens recommended postponing Rheinubung until the Autumn of 1941 when Tirpitz would be ready, but Raeder overuled him.

[RF]

...... a several day delay would have given Tovey time to refuel and collect his entire force to strike Lutjens.

Or get left behind as the German ships went past him into the Atlantic.

[RF]

Battleships are beautiful and I love them, specially the axis ones like Bismarck or Yamato, but, being sincere, they oulived their master´s need. The new weapons, CVs and Uboats would have been the focus. And in this respect Raeder is to blame in Germany as the Fleet Faction is in Japan. Imagine two more brand new Japanese Fleet Carriers the size Yamato and Musashi (well, two Shinanos) in the Pacific. That (if they have the Air Fleets in order to man the air arm) could have given the operational advantage to the Japanese at Midway. Or those 70 (140 not building Tirpitz along Bismarck) U Boats in the Atlantic.

Battleships were a bad investment. U-Boats were the future...

This is a point I would generally agree with but there is a counterconsideration that Bismarck was never really put to the test as a commerce raider and attacker of convoys - so we don't know for sure what would have happened if Bismarck went on the attack in the north Atlantic if say the DS interception never happened (which would have been the case if both Suffolk and Norfolk just missed Bismarck).

If you set up a convoy for attack by either Bismarck or Graf Zeppelin - which could do the greater damage, battleship or carrier?

Fleet action being in the Pacific - well, yes but of course there was an Axis fleet in the Med. It could of course have escaped into the Atlantic and joined the KM surface ships. Now how about an Axis force of Bismarck, Tirpitz, Vittorio Veneto and Littorio loose in the north Atlantic, with a neutral USA?

So how about these four ships versus Hood, POW, KGV, Repulse as nothing else would really be fast enough to keep up, except perhaps Renown. If we add Renown we could then add Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, and Karl you now have your own WW2 Battle of Jutland, in the wide open spaces of the Atlantic.

[David89]

Fleet action being in the Pacific - well, yes but of course there was an Axis fleet in the Med. It could of course have escaped into the Atlantic and joined the KM surface ships. Now how about an Axis force of Bismarck, Tirpitz, Vittorio Veneto and Littorio loose in the north Atlantic, with a neutral USA?

So how about these four ships versus Hood, POW, KGV, Repulse as nothing else would really be fast enough to keep up, except perhaps Renown. If we add Renown we could then add Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, and Karl you now have your own WW2 Battle of Jutland, in the wide open spaces of the Atlantic.

There is no "of course" about the Italians ability to escape from the Mediterranean. If they try to go via Gibralter then they will run into Renown, Nelson, and Ark Royal and there is no chance of their being able to either slip past or avoid severe damage in a fight with these ships. Renown and Nelson aren't really a match for Vittorio Veneto and Littorio, but Ark Royal is more than enough to tip the balance considering how weak the Italian ships AA is and since the Pugalise system of underwater protection is so ineffective a couple of torpedo hits should be enough to cripple either Italian ship. Now if the Italians try to slip out via the Suez Canal, which isn't really practical anyway, they will run into Queen Elizabeth, Warspite, Valiant, and Barham based at Alexandria. This isn't a fight the Italians have any chance of winning and even if they did by some miracle win, they will be wrecks with little or no fighting ability, not to mention the long journey to meet up with the German ships in the Atlantic.

[Karl Heidenreich]

RF:

This is a point I would generally agree with but there is a counterconsideration that Bismarck was never really put to the test as a commerce raider and attacker of convoys - so we don't know for sure what would have happened if Bismarck went on the attack in the north Atlantic if say the DS interception never happened (which would have been the case if both Suffolk and Norfolk just missed Bismarck).

Rheinubung was the proof that Bismarck, or any other Axis BB, was not suited to be a surface raider. So big a vessel was going to be hunted by the RN until they met Bismarck´s fate. We cannot say the same for the U Boats: they were the ideal weapon to destroy commerce and vital supply lines. Just see the statistics of tonnage sunk by U Boats. Image 70 more raiding at the Atlantic in mid 40ies. No Bismarck could achieve that, never...

[dunmunro]

Rheinubung was the proof that Bismarck, or any other Axis BB, was not suited to be a surface raider. So big a vessel was going to be hunted by the RN until they met Bismarck´s fate. We cannot say the same for the U Boats: they were the ideal weapon to destroy commerce and vital supply lines. Just see the statistics of tonnage sunk by U Boats. Image 70 more raiding at the Atlantic in mid 40ies. No Bismarck could achieve that, never...

There is another thread on this, but by June 1941 the RN/RCN had largely countered the U-boat threat.

[Karl Heidenreich]

I said: mid 40ies. I meant mid 1940. So, by 1941 the main battle would have been decided.

Best regards.

[dunmunro]

I said: mid 40ies. I meant mid 1940. So, by 1941 the main battle would have been decided.

Best regards.

Large numbers of u-boats in mid 1940 would have been a problem, but it was not until KM torpedoes were improved that they could have been decisive.

[RF]

There is no "of course" about the Italians ability to escape from the Mediterranean. If they try to go via Gibralter then they will run into Renown, Nelson, and Ark Royal and there is no chance of their being able to either slip past or avoid severe damage in a fight with these ships.

Such a transit would require Axis control of Gibraltar to be possible.

[RF]

Rheinubung was the proof that Bismarck, or any other Axis BB, was not suited to be a surface raider. So big a vessel was going to be hunted by the RN until they met Bismarck´s fate. We cannot say the same for the U Boats: they were the ideal weapon to destroy commerce and vital supply lines. Just see the statistics of tonnage sunk by U Boats. Image 70 more raiding at the Atlantic in mid 40ies. No Bismarck could achieve that, never...

Size is not so important as tonnage sunk and convoy cycles disrupted. Bismarck did not have the chance to attack convoys so Rheinubung did not achieve anything except for the loss of Hood. But matters could have been very different and what actually happened does not prove or disprove Bismarck's suitability as a surface raider in my view.