H-44 The Queen of the sea?

[Karl Heidenreich]

Tiornu:

Holger Herwig (Politics of Frustration, p 189) is explicit that both Hitler and Raeder believed in "the overriding importance of a single decisive naval engagement," though differing in the details. I just happened to read that last week.

Wow! Hitler the super naval strategist! Now there is paralel line of thought of Germans and Japanese delusionists: the decisive battle! It seems that it was the loser criteria to have a decisive battle, specially when their enemies had no desire at all to fight it but a protacted campaing of atrition. Sad.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Terje:

This proposal adresses my previously mentioned point head on, Robert. If we ignore obstructions such as logistic, budget, harbour facilities etc. and allow H-44 operate on the high seas then obviously we must also realize that the British would respond to the situation. We can't alter navy A and expect navy B to "...carry on business as usual".

Karl mentioned the logistics, Richard adressed her size and so I would adress the price tag on this super-sized chunk of steel which I think would have been utterly ridiculous. Not only the cost to construct her but also the continuous expenses to keep her operative. At the end of the day someone has to pay for the party and as we know, more here means less somewhere else.

It´s quite obvious that Raeder and some of the Japanese planners really believed that in the middle of the XX Century the naval decision was dictated by the all big gun engagement, the "decisive battle". If someone ignores the fact that airpower render traditional naval strategy and tactics obsolete, then the building of hiper sized, super armoured and extra gunned BBs is a sound reasoning. The case of Yamato, for example, made sense if the Japanese DID engage in a batte line combat against the USN. In such a case, no matter what the USN could have bring forth to the combat, the sheer weight of Yamato´s broadside and her invulnerability against what it´s bear against her, could have been a great advantage. But the case is that the USN was not willing to expose herself to that threat and, as a matter of fact, they had evolved into the new era of naval fight. So, in the same line of thinking (Raeder´s or Hitler´s) the building of the super H Class BB could have been a priority: for the expected new "Der Tag" the Germans could have a couple of these beasts leading a Bismarck Class battle line closed by some Schanhorsts or Admirals Scheers...
Of course, the RN would have never been fool enough to fall into the temptation of charging, Nelson like, something like that: so they have airpower to diminish the threat as the USN did in the Pacific.

Of course, we could have a fight if the Germans find how to "feed" those fuel hogs...

[Tiornu]

But the case is that the USN was not willing to expose herself to that threat

The USN could not be willing to face Yamato's great size and firepower because it did not know of the existence of those qualities. Had the Americans known, then they would have been willing. In a case of a battle-line action, the Americans would not have hesitated to engage a force including Yamato any more than the Japanese would hesitate to engage a force including Ting Yuen.

Hitler the super naval strategist!

The KM definitely suffered for the disconnect between Hitler and naval strategy. The KM was busy developing its own plans for defeating Britain in the Mediterranean when Barbarossa was suddenly imposed on it. I continue to suspect that a KM participation in Barbarossa similar to the one in the Norway campaign might have been the best use of remaining German surface strength, even at the cost of severe losses.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Tiornu:

I believe that if the USN would have known about Yamato´s real firepower then they´ll would have tried to destroyed it using a special CV force rather than seeking a surface combat. It appears that the USN was not specially decided to fight a traditional style battle line combat. If we see the only one, Surigao, they tried all the methods to inflict severe attrition on the IJN prior to commit the heavy units.

Best regards.

[Tiornu]

Yes, we're saying roughly the same thing. Obviously the Americans would prefer to use aircraft in such a battle, as would any navy with an aerial capability. But Yamato's size is irrelevant in this as it would not afford her with any special status; the Americans would treat Nagato in the same way. What's most curious here is the fact that the Americans would consider using their battleships to confront the Yamato force in April 1945.

[Karl Heidenreich]

What's most curious here is the fact that the Americans would consider using their battleships to confront the Yamato force in April 1945.

There I´m confused and I admitt that weeks ago I mislead some people because I believed that it was Willis Lee´s BBs the ones considered for this action. Now I´m not that sure, maybe they were Oldendorf´s ones. Which ones were the ones that were supposed to be used against Operation Ten Go?

Best regards.

[Tiornu]

They were the old ships with Deyo now in command. Deyo's chief of staff commented at the time that Yamato's guns had a range of 45,000 yards, so he must have had some inkling of her true capability.

[Karl Heidenreich]

In wikipedia it says that the BBs assembled to face Yamato and Co. were:

A force of six battleships (Massachusetts, Indiana, New Jersey, South Dakota, Wisconsin, and Missouri), supported by cruisers (including Alaska and Guam) and destroyers, was also assembled to intercept the Japanese fleet if the airstrikes did not succeed.[13]

Quite an impressive force. Was this the same force under Deyo?

[Tiornu]

No, Deyo had the oldies only.
Missouri and Wisconsin were in TF 58.4 which did not even get close enough to launch an air attack. I don't recall that this wikipedia battleship force was ever "assembled," though I could be wrong.

[jonsidneyb]

The H-44 is in open water but what is now missing from Germen inventory...is it other ships? Perhaps subs? Aircraft? Tanks? Factories? Something somewhere is missing to that H-44 better do a lot.

The H-44 knows better than to get in range of land based aircraft so stays in open water distant from land. Churchill advises the Americans that there will be fewer ships available for convoy escort. Convoy activity still occurs but is cut in half with the USN doing all of the escort of course this is only temporary.

The RN starts a frantic search for this huge ship. The H-44 by chance stumbles upon a convoy, it scatters while the escorts vainly attempt to engage. The escorts suffer 100% loss but 75% of the convoy escapes but some of them get picked off but U-Boats as the run to the UK. The damage is done...a radio message went out and the approximate location of the H-44 is now known.

The RN creates 3 groups of heavy units. The slow heavies, the kind of fast heavies, and the faster yet heavies. The RN carriers are also dispatched. The cruisers that area available as well as destroyers and any other combatant not needed elsewhere start grouping with nearby ships and then converge on the area.

The slow units are...well slow but that is ok. The slow units form the catchers mitt. The form a line and move towards the H-44 knowing then cannot catch it but they can reduce the size of the playing field. The medium fast unit can't catch either but also head that direction forming another wall. The fast unit is going to try and herd the H-44.

A couple of cruisers find the H-44 and are ordered to shadow the huge ship. The slow heavy line is to the north moving south. The medium speed unit is north east of the H-44 and the fast heavy unit is racing to the south. The carriers are racing with cruiser and destroyer escort to the area as fast as they can.

The fast unit finally gets into place but is a little afraid of the huge H-44 the battle cruisers even more so. The fast units generally keep their distance but a couple of ships rush in and take a couple of pot shots and race away. The H-44 responds but keeps its distance from superior numbers. She may choose to fight or try and run. The fast fleet hopes she makes a run to the north but the H-44 is staying it's course while the fast unit tries to keep its distance. More cruisers join the hunt and form up with the fast heavies. The carriers are getting near.

One of the cruisers disobeys orders and closes to engage the H-44. It fires fast and furious but is soon lost. The H-44 radios in that it has lost one of its surface search radars to 6inch gun fire but it is redundant. The message is intercepted and decoded. Meanwhile the carriers are close enough to start air operations. They are instructed to attack but to also try and get the H-44 to move north or north east. The H-44 does not comply but is moving in a zig-zag in order to avoid the aircraft slowing the H-44s progress. This allows the slow unit to the north and medium speed unit to the north east to close even further.

Now that the RN has learned that one of the surface radar units is down they decide the loss of the cruiser was not wasted but still not effective. The fast heavies close to engage in hopes that they can take out more of the eyes and ears of the H-44. The stringbags continue their harrasment the whole time. The fast heavy unit is trying to control fire disapline but is a little difficult as some of the people are proclaiming how big she is...we can't miss her.

The fast unit is achieving hits at this point but a fast battleship is disabled and a battlecruiser is lost but not before the battlecruiser gets 3 hits on the huge H-44. The unit to the north east is not in range and starts to form a wall to the east closing off an escape route. The fire against the H-44 is not pretty heavy and she divides her fire. Now the slow unit is capping the box. The battlecruisers leave the fast battleships to close the west end of the box but maintain their distance for the most part. The cruisers are ordered to join the battlecruisers to add to their gunfire and make more targets to divide the fire of the H-44 even more if she decides to break out to the west.

Now the H-44 is in a box with the weak side being the west side occupied by the battlecruisers and cruisers. The stringbags try and herd the H-44 away from the west side of the box but the H-44 now knows that is the weak side of the box. Her Aft turrets are trying to keep the top bottom and southern end of the box at bay but that is three directions to fire. Her forward turrets are going to try and punch a hole in the battle cruiser line. She still cannot fire on all opponents so she directs her fire on one BC while her aft turrets have too many targets to engage. The box starts to close while the stringbags have a nice easy target moving due west to break out of the box and start to score hits. The battlecruisers slowly withdraw while the box tries to follow the movements of the H-44.

The H-44 finally succumbs to the torps of the stringbags as she is not avoiding them any longer, she was focused on her breakout. She had not good options left to her so it was not a mistake.

Germany falls quickly as the H-44 meant fewer tanks against the Russians or was it fewer ships at sea, or was it fewer planes to intercept bombers. It was one of them that that came up short...or all of them.

[Karl Heidenreich]

Tiornu:

I don't recall that this wikipedia battleship force was ever "assembled," though I could be wrong.

I trust more in your memory than in wikipedia. Wiki is like CNN: oficial but not exact.

Best regards.

[RF]

Interesting scenario, johnsidneyh, but it reminds me more of an Indian tiger hunt than the pursuing of a super battleship.

There are too many inponderables here, and British losses would be unacceptably high.

One matter completely ignored in the scenario is that ships need to be kept fuelled. For the Germans this means mid-ocean refuelling from supply tankers. This would be the real weak point for the Germans as the British would seek to destroy all the supply ships and force H-44 to cut its speed and/or make for home.
However the British have a major handicap.With no facility to refuel ships at sea, they will all have to refuel in port. They cannot chase H-44 without interruption. This means reducing the size of the pursuing forces at any one time, with the risk of a weaker and wider net. The H-44 could escape.

Another aspect given a long chase is that H-44 has a limited supply of ammunition. Smaller targets therefore are less likely to be fired on.

It would also be a virtual certainty that H-44 would not be operating completely alone. Other warship raiders could be used to create diversions. Dummy models of a second and third H-44 could be erected in German ports to give the impression of a multiple threat. Weakened convoy escorts make the task of the U-boats easier. More effective use of Luftwaffe long range bombers could be made. An attack on Malta and/or Gibralter could be used to draw some British naval forces back into the Med.

The scenario's are almost endless, but the tiger hunt approach I don't think would succeed and I doubt the British would try it given the easier solution of sinking the Germans supply ships and beefing up convoy escorts.

[RF]

It doesn't matter when the ship was conceived. It can't function on a raiding mission or as an aircraft carrier while it is stuck in the mud.

In reality yes - indeed the H-44 could probably not have been built.

But this section of threads is entitled ''Hypothetical Naval Scenarios''' and this is what this proposition is intended to be.

[RF]

I´m reading a novel about vampires!

Best regards.

What novel Karl?

[RF]

Two saw another Battle of Tsushima. It never did. Yamamoto was aware of the great potential within carrier-based warfare, he exploited this with partial success against US battleships at Pearl, and so forth he would also see the demise of the Musashi long before it took place. Size would not do the trick against numbers.

I believe Yammamoto was ambushed and killed by the Americans prior to Musashi being sunk....