minoru genda wrote:... lets say they hang around for another day as "dunmunro" wrote and attack early on December 8. There would be no surprise this time but the US army and navy had only a handful of planes left.
The Enterprise (with some lost and damaged planes) was in Pearl area on December 8 too and maybe could be discovered and attacked by the japanese.
"RNfanDan" says that additional damage in Pearl wouldn't affect Coral Sea and Midway operations at all but what if the usn lost the Enterprise?
lwd wrote:After the attack the USAAF had about 60 fighters operational and about 50 more that could be repaired. Some of these would be ready on the 8th. Considering what the few combat ready fighters did on the 7th this is at least enough to cause considerable consternation for the attacking planes.
lwd wrote:I don't think Enterpirse got into port until the evening of the 8th. Unlikely she would be spotted by the Japanese. However her planes might get into the battle.
Enterprise was returning to Oahu on the morning of 7 December 1941, from a mission to deliver Marine planes and pilots of squadron VMF-211 to Wake Island. Eighteen SBD Dauntless scout bombers of Enterprise squadrons VS-6 and VB-6 arrived over Pearl Harbor during the attack and, though surprised, immediately went into action in defense of the naval base. Scouting Six lost six planes during the attack, while Bombing Six lost one. Several of these planes were shot down by the Japanese; however, at least one plane was lost to heavy antiaircraft fire, and many more were damaged. At one point a radio report was heard: "Do not attack me, this is six baker three an American plane" and later the same pilot (Ensign Manuel Gonzales of VB-6) was heard ordering his radioman/gunner to prepare for a water landing. Lt. C. E. Dickinson and his crewmate William C. Miller of Scouting Six accounted for one Japanese plane before being forced to bail out after their plane caught fire. Dickinson later made his way to Ford Island to man another plane and participated in the search for the Japanese fleet. He was recommended for a commendation for "displaying a superb courage, stamina, devotion to duty, unexcelled logic and coolness in action". Enterprise also launched six Grumman F4F Wildcats of VF-6 in the wake of the attack; all except two were shot down by shell-shocked anti-aircraft gunners as they attempted to land on Ford Island that night. The carrier, meanwhile, assembled her remaining aircraft in a fruitless search for the Japanese striking force; the search was to the south and west of Oahu, while the Japanese retired to the northwest. Enterprise put into Pearl Harbor for fuel and supplies on the night of 8 December, and sailed early the next morning to patrol against possible additional attacks in the Hawaiian Islands.
lwd wrote:What if the IJN lost half their bombers? Remember they had by some accounts over 100 planes damaged mostly from the second wave. Attacking vs alerted defences especially if the AAF breaks up the attacks by intercepting early isn't going to be a good thing for them.
minoru genda wrote: ...Before the attack there were about 390 planes of all kinds in Pearl. 188 aircraft were destroyed and 155 damaged so we have 47 planes ready plus the 50 that you said could be repaired in less that 24 hours, but remember not all of these planes were fighters, there were patrol planes, bombers, etc.
On the 7th of December 1941, there were 223 army aircraft based in Hawaii.
Airplane Total Destroyed Damaged Combat Ready
B-17 D 12 4 4 4
B-18 A 33 12 10 11
A-20 A 12 2 5 5
P-40 C 12 5 5 2
P-40 B 87 37 25 25
P-36 A 39 4 19 16
P-26 14 0 0 14
Total 223 64 82 77
RF wrote:The above two posts make sense, especially if the Japanese force was eight carriers instead of six as I proposed.
minoru genda wrote:Good link lwd with very accurate numbers.
If I were Nagumo and had to send the third wave on the 8th with let's say 175 aircraft I would send 50 zeros 30 minutes in advance so they can keep the inferior US fighters busy and let the rest 125 bombers can attack pearl.
lwd wrote:RF wrote:The above two posts make sense, especially if the Japanese force was eight carriers instead of six as I proposed.
I think the other two were left out becasue they weren't fast enough. Ther emay also have been range problems.
Legend wrote:If Nagumo really wanted to be at war with the US he would have sent that third wave. Wasn't he the one who said "I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant" or something along those lines? Silly Japs, the second lesson you learn at school is never mess with someone who has a reputation for being the big kid on the block...
minoru genda wrote:Good link lwd with very accurate numbers.
If I were Nagumo and had to send the third wave on the 8th with let's say 175 aircraft I would send 50 zeros 30 minutes in advance so they can keep the inferior US fighters busy and let the rest 125 bombers can attack pearl.
RF wrote: Given the stealth approach to north-west Hawaii over time and the relatively close proximity to the attack area would this have been a problem? In any event the presence of eight carriers would provide a substantial force for any counter-attack - if that were possible.
Return to “Hypothetical Naval Scenarios”
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests