Two KGV's vs. Yamato

[Bgile]

I thought PoW had FC radar.

[dunmunro]

I thought PoW had FC radar.

PoW did have type 284 and type 281, but neither set provided reliable ranging at DS and PoW's FC was conducted entirely by optical ranging. Both sets were functioning, apparently correctly, but the ranging data was unusable - the type 281 was reporting three KM targets, for example. PoW did get radar ranging data in her 3rd engagement, but PoW's gunnery report states that the failure of radar ranging at DS was due to "interference" - I suspect that there is a interesting article to be written about this, by someone with access to the archives.

[Bgile]

Someone, I think Tiornu, has pointed out that the trajectory the shell had to follow to end up where it was in PoW's SPS could only have occurred if the fuse was defective. If the fuse had functioned properly the shell would have exploded before hitting PoW.

[Bgile]

I thought it was "common knowledge" that PoW's and Hood's ranging radars were intefering with each other and PoW was ordered to switch hers off. Also, that she switched it on after Hood exploded and was able to use it effectively.

[Tiornu]

Someone, I think Tiornu, has pointed out that the trajectory the shell had to follow to end up where it was in PoW's SPS could only have occurred if the fuse was defective.

If the shell had performed as designed, the shell would have exploded before hitting the ship. That does not mean the shell was defective, however--it may simply have been subjected to hydrodynamic forces that would disable any shell.
Japanese shells were quite different from German shells. The fuze delay was something like ten times longer--no joke. And they were designed to maintain underwater trajectories nose-first...which doesn't mean that any given shell would travel as intended.
Looking back at the past few pages, I think the discussion reached its end some time ago. The KGVs' chance to penetrate Yamato's armor is very limited; Yamato's ability to penetrate the British armor is not very limited. Therefore the question is largely one of whether the British can soft-kill the Japanese before the Japanese can hard- or soft-kill the British. Depending on the date, you can also try to match-up each side's radar and countermeasures. Since the historical precedents for these comparisons are minimal, it's basically up to each person's imagination to pick a likely outcome. The rest is a duel--my magination is better than yours!

[Bgile]

I agree, but we like to argue about this stuff. :)

[Tiornu]

Hee! If you don't mind the bruised foreheads....

[dunmunro]

I thought it was "common knowledge" that PoW's and Hood's ranging radars were intefering with each other and PoW was ordered to switch hers off. Also, that she switched it on after Hood exploded and was able to use it effectively.

PoW's gunnery report is quite definite that no usable radar ranges were obtained. There has been speculation that radar ranges were available but not used, but whatever the case, PoW used optical ranging throughout the battle. The written account by the type 281 radar officer makes it clear that his set was reporting three targets!

[lwd]

... The written account by the type 281 radar officer makes it clear that his set was reporting three targets!

I know there's a situation with police radars where if two vehicles are in the speed gate at the same time not only do the speeds of the two vehicles get reported but so does a difference speed and a sum speed. IE if one is going 50 mph and one 60 mph those are reported along with 10 mph and 110 mph. The sum and difference returns are weaker but some of the early sets locked on the high speed which could be a problem. Given that the two German ships were fairly close together it's possible that the set was reporting a sum return. It's been too long since I worked on radar to know if this was likely or not so treat as something less than a well formed hypothesis.

[tnemelckram]

Hi all! I'm new to these boards but have read a lot so I thought I'd "weigh in".

I may stand to be corrected, but it appears from putting together what I have read on a lot of the threads is that (1) the KGV has a two knot speed advantage and (2) their guns could penetrate the Yamato's armor at very long ranges.

The speed advantage allows you to accept or decline action at will and on your terms. So I'd close in just within my maximum gun range from different quarters, take a few pops and see what happened.
If it went well keep shooting until it starts to look bad, retreat out of range, and then repeat the process. Pick away at Yamato.

Looking at the big picture, there might be another way to win using this approach. Presumably the Yamato set out with some larger purpose in mind than finding and sinking two enemy BB's so this is a "meeting engagement". This might distract Yamato from or prevent her larger mission, which is a win for the KGV's even without sinking her or sustaining unacceptable damage to themselves balanced against that result.

One problem with my idea is whether the British commander would know of these relative advantages when making his plan. We only know this from what we found out later in, and after, the War.

Another problem is that it is so contrary to British doctrine (at least as it stood at Denmark Strait) that the commander might risk Inquiry or Court Martial by doing it. Tovey's instruction to favor an end on approach to close the range quickly seems to be a modern refinement of the ancient injunction from the sailing days to "engage the enemy more closely". It was so ingrained that Leach's decision to turn away was questioned; under the circumstances Leach faced I find that shocking.

[lwd]

... (1) the KGV has a two knot speed advantage and (2) their guns could penetrate the Yamato's armor at very long ranges.

The speed advantage allows you to accept or decline action at will and on your terms. So I'd close in just within my maximum gun range from different quarters, take a few pops and see what happened.
...

I'm curious why you chose tow different quarters. If the KGVs have a good working RFC set and even more so if they know what they are facing then long range is definitely the way to go. Two knots can be pretty ephemeral in a naval engagement though. Even a round through a smoke stack and it can be gone (perhaps a slight exageration here).

[tnemelckram]

Hi lwd! You asked

I'm curious why you chose two different quarters.

The two KGV's are approaching from behind. Yamato has only one rear main battery so it can't shoot at both anyway and greater separation makes it harder to switch targets. Greater separation also might expose the back of the turret to a lucky hit from one when the turret is pointed at the other.
As I understand it the business end of the turret is more heavily protected.

[jonsidneyb]

I thought the Yamato actually had an amazingly tight turning radius especially considering its size. I don't think you could maintain a position behind her masking her forward batteries.

[lwd]

It's also been suggested on these boards that the British could coordinate fire from two ships operating together. I'm not familiar with the details of that. As I think I've mentioned before there's also the possibility of the two are separate that Yamato might be able to close on one which would not be good for the object of her attention.

[tnemelckram]

Hi jonsid and lwd! I'm replying to both of your posts.

I thought the Yamato actually had an amazingly tight turning radius especially considering its size. I don't think you could maintain a position behind her masking her forward batteries.

My plan doesn't require the British to maintain any position if Yamato turned around and shot with all her guns. It only requires them to maintain contact. It does give the KGV's a small speed advantage, so they can turn away and get out from under Yamato's full fury if it turns out to be too much for them. Once out of range, turn again to maintain contact so you can try again or try something else.

It's also been suggested on these boards that the British could coordinate fire from two ships operating together. I'm not familiar with the details of that.

I'm not either but I think that the essential information could be transmitted by radio.

As I think I've mentioned before there's also the possibility of the two are separate that Yamato might be able to close on one which would not be good for the object of her attention.

I'm assuming the KGV has a small speed advantage, which seems to be correct. If Yamato's turn to close is detected quickly it can be countered and avoided by also turning and running away. All that requires proper detection and execution by the good seamen in any Royal Navy crew. I am not saying to separate the two so far that they could not support each other, just enough to present Yamato with a division of fire problem and maybe give one or the other KGV an opening.